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Post by Cheesebeard on Apr 21, 2017 20:56:53 GMT
With the new scenarios being tested, it looks like Legion's struggle with attrition is about to become more of a front-and-center issue.
What are your thoughts/lists on addressing things like: Haley3, Harbinger infantry, Khador's IFP/Rocket/jack spam, Ossrum gunbunnies + forgeguard, Thexus drudge AND heavy spam, CoC double TEP + whatever, and the like?
I feel like some of our unloved pieces are looking a bit more attractive in terms of versatility, although they lack the raw power that I'm seeing out of other factions; thinking primarily about our pieces that can create models of a different category (Kallus1, Thagrosh2, Afflictor, Spawning Vessel), with an optimistic nod to the Twins for some potential multi-score shenanigans (we'll have to wait for week 2 on the new wording). Casters that force list diversity like Bethayne also feel more at home in this setting (while the opposite is true for our beast-heavy devotees).
Will it overcome the shortcomings of these models? Who knows. But I'd like to hear what people are coming up with and putting on the table.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288 
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Post by Whiskie on Apr 21, 2017 22:00:59 GMT
I'm not sure if it's the right response to the problem but one solution is to just play our Warlocks that are better at attrition.
Thagrosh1 is easily Legion's best attrition Warlock. He loves the long, drawn out slugfest sorts of games that the new scenarios seem to promote. With a constant damage debuff for opponents, a DEF buff against shooting and STR buff in the form of upkeeps, a Feat that brings a dead Warbeast back, no concern for ever running out of Fury due to Athanc, solid offensive abilities and being difficult to assassinate Thagrosh1 brings basically everything we need to grind games out with some of the best of them.
Lylyth2 is the other Warlock that jumps out at me. While her attrition game doesn't have anything to do with grinding like Thagrosh1's does, she can get a big attrition lead early on with her Feat. Everything that shoots does so better with Lylyth2 so killing off a large chunk of the opponent's army before lines truly clash should give a pretty big attrition lead. My problem with her is that none of the themes forces feel like they quite fit her which is unfortunate. Ravens of War and Children of the Dragon don't allow Ravagores and Oracles doesn't allow Strider Scouts, Raptors or Grotesque Banshees all of which have quite a bit of game with Lyl2. She's further tempted to play out of theme by how good many character beasts are with her like Typhon and Azrael.
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Post by zerohour on Apr 21, 2017 22:16:19 GMT
I have been playing the exact pair of Lylyth 2 and Thagrosh 1 for a few weeks now tweaking both and I think they will do well in the new scenarios. They have some slightly difficult natchups, specifically quality shooting, but nothing too hard to deal with.
I feel like the scenarios will give Lylyth the time she needs to find the run, and I think Thagrosh can hold on to a small scenario lead for 7 rounds.
I also don't think we will be in a bad spot with other casters once players adapt there play style to take advantage of the 7 turns we have to outmaneuver opponents. With Fyanna 2 for example she can totally okay attrition vs a lot of lists just because she is so good at getting the alpha in combination with a time walkish feat. If instead of forcing a win the turn after we play to stretch the attrition I think it will still be strong, maybe not busted like it was, but strong.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Apr 21, 2017 22:38:40 GMT
For Fyanna specifically I feel that the version of the list with the Blackfrost Shard might end up being better than the other version with 2x Sorceress & Hellion. Mainly because having a second damage buff helps out those Neraphs who either can't get Fury in a given turn or can be used to crank a Furied Neraph up to 11. It really helps with being able to fully kill stuff and then Sprint to safety.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Apr 22, 2017 18:23:43 GMT
Kallus1 has some attrition game with his feat and unyielding for troops, but he's more about the assault of hot-swapped Ignite and Dark Guidance.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Apr 22, 2017 18:43:32 GMT
Unyielding has very little game on most of Legion's infantry. The single wound guys don't benefit a whole lot from +2ARM except for Legionnaires. Warspears and Warmongers are in general too squishy to bother with. Unyielding is more about buffing Hellmouths and Kallus himself.
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Post by jediguru on Apr 24, 2017 19:16:17 GMT
Gotta say Im not feeling good about Legion in SR 17. This could be pretty rough for the faction. We'll see.
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Post by snotling on Apr 24, 2017 20:28:33 GMT
Gotta say Im not feeling good about Legion in SR 17. This could be pretty rough for the faction. We'll see. So far im really liking the new sr for legion. Only had 4 games so far tho With how much slower the new szenarios are, we have more time to hit n run than before, because we dont have to face our opponent head on. Khador jack spam for example: if they stay together, they just score one or two points a turn and we get a lot of room to nibble at the flanks and score ourselves. If they spread out, with our high speed, we get opportunities to single out targets or go for the assassination. They cant just stand in a single zone for two turns and win. And if infantry gets more prevalent now, thats awesome for legion as well, because we have awesome inf removal, often very fast and able to move after shooting. Legin attrition should never be armwrestling with a dire troll. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee xD |
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Apr 25, 2017 0:41:19 GMT
After playing some more practice games it seems that we'll need to adopt a slightly different approach than before. The first thing I noticed is how much worse timewalk style feats are, especially when they aren't "hard" control like Haley2's Feat. Fyanna2 for example feels a lot weaker than before because a huge part of her game plan was to alpha, score 1-2 CP's and Feat, then repeat the same trick to score another CP or 2. Then her army would start dying but by then she was so far ahead on scenario that the opponent couldn't prevent her from continuing to score to 5. (For what it's worth I imagine Saeryn1 will suffer similarly)
The new approach is to get monstrously far ahead on attrition early so that Legion's lack of resilience and relative inability to grind out long games are less a factor. Lylyth2, Abby2, Vayl2 and any other Warlock who can have one really explosive turn are an asset here. Being bad at grinding doesn't matter much if Lylyth2 shoots half or more of an opponent's army off the board on her Feat turn for example.
There are exceptions to this approach. Lylyth3, Vayl2, Rhyas1 and Kallus2 can still play an assassination game just like before. Since this is one of Legion's greatest strengths it makes sense that we'd continue to excel in this area. The other option is to play a grindy Warlock/list like Thagrosh1 or Kallus1. Both of those Warlocks have the ability to attrition with some of the best in the game which lets you slog out a game all the way to turn 7 if need be. I'm even wondering about possibilities with Abby1. Forced Evolution on an already high DEF beast like Typhon or an Angelius makes it hard enough to one-round that you can potentially Feat to refill a wounded beast back to full boxes. One must wonder if there isn't a list that spams Angels and Neraphs in Oracles led by Abby1 waiting to be discovered.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Apr 25, 2017 5:46:17 GMT
After playing some more practice games it seems that we'll need to adopt a slightly different approach than before. The first thing I noticed is how much worse timewalk style feats are, especially when they aren't "hard" control like Haley2's Feat. Fyanna2 for example feels a lot weaker than before because a huge part of her game plan was to alpha, score 1-2 CP's and Feat, then repeat the same trick to score another CP or 2. Then her army would start dying but by then she was so far ahead on scenario that the opponent couldn't prevent her from continuing to score to 5. (For what it's worth I imagine Saeryn1 will suffer similarly) The new approach is to get monstrously far ahead on attrition early so that Legion's lack of resilience and relative inability to grind out long games are less a factor. Lylyth2, Abby2, Vayl2 and any other Warlock who can have one really explosive turn are an asset here. Being bad at grinding doesn't matter much if Lylyth2 shoots half or more of an opponent's army off the board on her Feat turn for example. There are exceptions to this approach. Lylyth3, Vayl2, Rhyas1 and Kallus2 can still play an assassination game just like before. Since this is one of Legion's greatest strengths it makes sense that we'd continue to excel in this area. The other option is to play a grindy Warlock/list like Thagrosh1 or Kallus1. Both of those Warlocks have the ability to attrition with some of the best in the game which lets you slog out a game all the way to turn 7 if need be. I'm even wondering about possibilities with Abby1. Forced Evolution on an already high DEF beast like Typhon or an Angelius makes it hard enough to one-round that you can potentially Feat to refill a wounded beast back to full boxes. One must wonder if there isn't a list that spams Angels and Neraphs in Oracles led by Abby1 waiting to be discovered. had this made up before the SR 2017 drop hit. War Room Army Legion of Everblight - abs1 oracles Theme: Oracles of Annihilation 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Stockpile - Steamroller Objective Absylonia, Terror of Everblight - WB: +31 - Proteus - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19) - Angelius - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Angelius - PC: 17 - Seraph - PC: 14 - Neraph - PC: 12 - Neraph - PC: 12 - Neraph - PC: 12 Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion - PC: 0 The Forsaken - PC: 0 The Forsaken - PC: 0 Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion - PC: 0 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1 Blighted Nyss Shepherd - PC: 1 Spell Martyr - PC: 1 THEME: Oracles of Annihilation --- GENERATED : 04/25/2017 00:45:02 BUILD ID : 2039.17-03-16 |
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izrian
Junior Strategist
Posts: 107
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Post by izrian on Apr 25, 2017 20:00:36 GMT
Have you had a chance to run that list Pied? Cause it looks like a shit load of fun, I'm curious to see how it'd do by round 5 though.
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Post by JJDM on Apr 25, 2017 20:07:44 GMT
Do you guys often have angels and neraphs get hit and survive the turn so that you could heal them the next turn? Forced evo can only go on one model...
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Post by snotling on Apr 25, 2017 20:32:00 GMT
Not very often at all. The fact, that warbeasts with 1hp are healed to full effectiveness by all warlock anyways, means my opponents try to kill them if for good if at all possible. Also grievous wounds.
Might work against some gunlines or inf swarms, but i dont really see it.
Maybe with an archangel?
Hit and run is our attrition xD.
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Post by piedpiperwtf on Apr 25, 2017 23:29:05 GMT
Do you guys often have angels and neraphs get hit and survive the turn so that you could heal them the next turn? Forced evo can only go on one model... Do't underestimate the blight-bringer AOE spell combo'd with model positioning survival is quite likely.......I find when I play Abby s1 I run everything 1st turn observe enemy reaction then swing the army to one side of the board causing a clustering effect on the opposition. |
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Apr 26, 2017 1:20:40 GMT
DEF16 is high enough that it's really difficult for opponents to remove even something squishy like a Neraph from range unless they have a ton of accurate boostable guns. There's some potential for the Feat to do work with high DEF beasts, much higher than on a Carnivean chassis beast in most circumstances.
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