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Post by auraco on Jul 8, 2019 14:06:36 GMT
I'm not a big fan of the melee only jack option, the list is already super melee centric and doesn't really have spot removal, having a couple of guns is always good in this case, especially with an easy access to puppet master to make it more reliable. Even just the grolar's gun would be a big help here.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 8, 2019 18:00:26 GMT
I'm not a big fan of the melee only jack option, the list is already super melee centric and doesn't really have spot removal, having a couple of guns is always good in this case, especially with an easy access to puppet master to make it more reliable. Even just the grolar's gun would be a big help here. I agree with this (a lot). It is what my Victor is for.
Consider
Your opponent, being smart, puts on "Discord " from Child onto a Crabbit and then runs it smack into the worst of the doomies. You, not being smart, have not positioned your bad santa to do an epic axe charge and boost the hit to fish for criticals. Instead, you have to do all this strange order of activation stuff to get the crabbit dead so you can go charge.
Spot removal worthwhile. If you are not bringing Victor at least have a destroyer avaiable. You will be just fine with a destroyer to camp your zone and spot remove while your Jugger goes up the field with Assail to help out anything your doomies can't kill.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 9, 2019 1:33:53 GMT
I think your comments bring me back to the Grolar + Marauder. Doomreavers can struggle a bit with huge bases, but Marauders topple them over like a boss. In terms of bringing guns to the party, the lowly Destroyer can bring one boosted POW 14 shot, but you know who brings 3-5 POW 12 shots? On a charging dual attack stick? The Grolar.
But those shots are RAT 4, you say?
Well, I’m thinking the Grolar is the perfect fallback candidate for Hand of Fate. In chess, you might have to mark that play with a (!) ...
When we get two Escorts for 1 Requisition Point, I’ll rethink the list with 3 more points to spend (at that point, it might be a Juggernaut, Destroyer, and unit of Eliminators...)
I’ll keep you posted on playtesting this month.
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Post by auraco on Jul 9, 2019 1:54:03 GMT
I think my favorite battlegroup for Vlad2 would be a destroyer and a grolar, but the points don't work out for you to do this without cutting a unit of reaver so I'm pretty sure it's off the table.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 9, 2019 2:01:32 GMT
I think my favorite battlegroup for Vlad2 would be a destroyer and a grolar, but the points don't work out for you to do this without cutting a unit of reaver so I'm pretty sure it's off the table. We are one small themepocolypse away from that Battlegroup working!
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 9, 2019 11:39:37 GMT
Sideways Vlad 2 thought. Although I detest the idea of suboptimizing free cards almost as much as playing a point down, if I drop the Adjunct I find I have room for the Eliminators.
War Room Army
Khador - Vlad 2 Wolves of Witchfire
Theme: Wolves of Winter 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion - WJ: +27 - Destroyer / Devastator - PC: 14 - Juggernaut - PC: 13
Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire - PC: 7 - Thrall Warrior Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 0
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 0 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Greylord Outriders - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
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Post by auraco on Jul 9, 2019 12:38:43 GMT
I wouldn't drop the adjunct, especially if you have a destroyer in your list, a guidanced puppet mastered destroyer is pretty good for spot removal, while the eliminators are good, you really don't lack feat target for Vlad2 with all the reavers you have in the list.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 9, 2019 21:40:35 GMT
I wouldn't drop the adjunct, especially if you have a destroyer in your list, a guidanced puppet mastered destroyer is pretty good for spot removal, while the eliminators are good, you really don't lack feat target for Vlad2 with all the reavers you have in the list. So I am going to disagree. You can, in many cases, get what you need off an objective (magical or eyeless). If you NEED to hit Grymlin swarms you have other options (ponies, bad santa) You can get rid of clouds with Vlad.
But what the eliminators give you is something that keeps your opponent BRUTALLY honest. Murder girls create a place where it is very scary for their warnoun to go. 13.5 inches (15.5 on sidesteps to a no camp caster). With acrobatics they can bypass bodyblocking, something that the doomies can not do (though I have taken free strikes a plenty at Def 16 and lived to tell the tale). I more often feat on my elminators than feat on my doomies.
Now this isn't to say that Adjunct isn't great. I love being able to upkeep 2 spells for free. Guidance is really really good. He can give Vlad2 a cloud which is situationally great. But as long as our komerad is fully committed to 5 units of doomies (I run just 4 but I understand the appeal) than it is really a question of adjunct vs. murder girls. Given how many games I have won with them I am going with the eliminators.
PS. The other thing is that shots at them are NOT shots at your doomies. That is called "winning" - especially when they are innately Def 15.
PPS. The other thing is that Vlad just is hardly ever stressed for focus - particularly in this list. Hand of Fate is unlikely to be hot swaped (goes on the ponies and stays there). Without murder girls you don't have as obvious candidate for Arcane Might- making upkeeping it a lot less important. We have already determined that you have a second list to handle shooting so while you might want one windblast you are unlikely to have 2 or 3 most turns.
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Post by auraco on Jul 9, 2019 23:09:18 GMT
I wouldn't drop the adjunct, especially if you have a destroyer in your list, a guidanced puppet mastered destroyer is pretty good for spot removal, while the eliminators are good, you really don't lack feat target for Vlad2 with all the reavers you have in the list. So I am going to disagree. You can, in many cases, get what you need off an objective (magical or eyeless). If you NEED to hit Grymlin swarms you have other options (ponies, bad santa) You can get rid of clouds with Vlad.
But what the eliminators give you is something that keeps your opponent BRUTALLY honest. Murder girls create a place where it is very scary for their warnoun to go. 13.5 inches (15.5 on sidesteps to a no camp caster). With acrobatics they can bypass bodyblocking, something that the doomies can not do (though I have taken free strikes a plenty at Def 16 and lived to tell the tale). I more often feat on my elminators than feat on my doomies.
Now this isn't to say that Adjunct isn't great. I love being able to upkeep 2 spells for free. Guidance is really really good. He can give Vlad2 a cloud which is situationally great. But as long as our komerad is fully committed to 5 units of doomies (I run just 4 but I understand the appeal) than it is really a question of adjunct vs. murder girls. Given how many games I have won with them I am going with the eliminators.
PS. The other thing is that shots at them are NOT shots at your doomies. That is called "winning" - especially when they are innately Def 15.
PPS. The other thing is that Vlad just is hardly ever stressed for focus - particularly in this list. Hand of Fate is unlikely to be hot swaped (goes on the ponies and stays there). Without murder girls you don't have as obvious candidate for Arcane Might- making upkeeping it a lot less important. We have already determined that you have a second list to handle shooting so while you might want one windblast you are unlikely to have 2 or 3 most turns.
You do realise that Arcane might goest on Vlad and any warrior in his control area can use his focus, right? All the reavers are his target. It's actually one of the thing that makes the list work so well, the fact that you get sustained damage from boosting even when not charging or that you get accurate attacks against higher def stuff. I don't disagree that eliminators are good, but they are not that hard to kill, especially if they are super far forward to try to threathen a caster. The way I pay Vlad2 I just make scenario push, I don't really care how forward their caster is if I just clear the zones an score scenario points.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 9, 2019 23:21:30 GMT
So I am going to disagree. You can, in many cases, get what you need off an objective (magical or eyeless). If you NEED to hit Grymlin swarms you have other options (ponies, bad santa) You can get rid of clouds with Vlad.
But what the eliminators give you is something that keeps your opponent BRUTALLY honest. Murder girls create a place where it is very scary for their warnoun to go. 13.5 inches (15.5 on sidesteps to a no camp caster). With acrobatics they can bypass bodyblocking, something that the doomies can not do (though I have taken free strikes a plenty at Def 16 and lived to tell the tale). I more often feat on my elminators than feat on my doomies.
Now this isn't to say that Adjunct isn't great. I love being able to upkeep 2 spells for free. Guidance is really really good. He can give Vlad2 a cloud which is situationally great. But as long as our komerad is fully committed to 5 units of doomies (I run just 4 but I understand the appeal) than it is really a question of adjunct vs. murder girls. Given how many games I have won with them I am going with the eliminators.
PS. The other thing is that shots at them are NOT shots at your doomies. That is called "winning" - especially when they are innately Def 15.
PPS. The other thing is that Vlad just is hardly ever stressed for focus - particularly in this list. Hand of Fate is unlikely to be hot swaped (goes on the ponies and stays there). Without murder girls you don't have as obvious candidate for Arcane Might- making upkeeping it a lot less important. We have already determined that you have a second list to handle shooting so while you might want one windblast you are unlikely to have 2 or 3 most turns.
You do realise that Arcane might goest on Vlad and any warrior in his control area can use his focus, right? All the reavers are his target. It's actually one of the thing that makes the list work so well, the fact that you get sustained damage from boosting even when not charging or that you get accurate attacks against higher def stuff. I don't disagree that eliminators are good, but they are not that hard to kill, especially if they are super far forward to try to threathen a caster. The way I pay Vlad2 I just make scenario push, I don't really care how forward their caster is if I just clear the zones an score scenario points. Yes. I do realize that. But most of my work with the feat comes from the second swing+Arcane Might. When the feated doomies are MAT 10 I don't need to USUALLY spend the focus to hit unless I want to make really really sure. Where I get MORE value out of it is the eliminator's second swing, which is not boosted since no change. Because of appirition (and the fact that doomies die) I almost always get a second charge over just standing their and swinging again. And of course I love being able to put hand of fate on the girls before they do their thing.
Def 15 is surprisingly hard to kill. And again. Shoots at Elminators are NOT shoots at your doomies.
I find that while I get a ton of scenario presence with this list I just crush folks when the caster moves forward - as they are apt to do to keep things in control but still threaten the far zone where a unit of doomies is standing a scoring while taking a smoke break.. That is when the Murder girls go to town.
But to each his own. I take only 4 doomies so I don't need to make this choice. But if I had to I am always grabbing my two favorite girls (one blond, one with red hair) ;-)
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Post by auraco on Jul 10, 2019 0:34:00 GMT
My list is also only four unit of reavers, but points are too tight for me to consider the eliminators.
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Post by skathrex on Jul 10, 2019 21:28:22 GMT
Fully forgot that you asked me to post here.
First of, list 1: Vlad2 WoW, this is also what I would run as a "main list". Main list in "" because it's not necissarily the list you gonna drop most of the time but its the one answering the biggest question in most metas in Harby, Tharn and Grymkin.
I ran similar versions to your list but found 5 Units + Outriders to clutter the board to much, in that the Outriders never found good angles to get threw reavers without sacrificing a lot of momentum. Currently I would run 4 Units of Reavers + Outriders, but I ran 5 Reyver Units for a long time. This gives me 2 Units of Ternions and a 3rd UA which in turn gives me a 28p BG. Not a big difference to your version.
I ran threw the typical BGs starting with double Destroyers and ended up on double Devestators, so no range Jack. Why? I found that Destroyers rarely do enough, whereas Devestators are excellent to hold Scenario elements. Again this is a test as I ran Dev+Destroyer for quite some time.
I am not a fan of Marauder + X. On the field I found this BG contributes the least because it requires you to fuel the jack in the phase were you are busy boosting rolls on the Reavers. The jacks rarely did something of value.
In your version I could see doing the horendus act of leaving a point open. Demolishers imo are never worth their points over Devestators. A Decimator can work with HoF and Ternions honestly. So I woul probably gravitate towards Dev+Decimator. Range might be an issue but you can put him in the right spots imo. Destroyer in contrast will probably start shooting a round earlier.
In the end though, this is fine tuning. It doesn't change any Matchups and mostly comes down to playstyle and preference.
List 2:
Here you have a selection of list I can all see myself running as a second list. Personally I went with Karchev for the longest time and in fact played him more often than Vlad2 simply because many opponents can't handle his armor. I would suggest however (pre Oblivion) to go for the max amount of Jacks (100 pts). I adjusted my version to new Scenarios with 2 Devs and 2 Destroyers meaning I can contest everywhere and shoot contesting models of the edges of zones while I still have 4 Marauders which in the important matchups of Ret and Skorne are absolutely devestating and together with Karchevs feat provide enough dmg.
Sorscha3 I honestly haven't played to much of in the last time, but I think your version is pretty close to what I would run. It still provides a ton of armor and Boxes for your opponent to chew threw, has good shooting support, a cloudwall feat. Issues here is that I think she, or at least this version suffers more from scenario than the Karchev list does, but I may be wrong here and you can just offset that with Tankers. Pairing wise the Rasheth Huge Base list might be a problem here, since she can soften you up and pretty much choose the point of engagement. A good Rashet player will also just shoot your jacks. Old WoD Rashet was a really hard matchup for this list when playing against a good pilot. Oh other point I just remembered. If that plays vs shooting it has to play against Cygnar which at least here in Germany has a very high chance of bringing Siege1. Thats a MU I don't think you wanna play
Vlad1 is rising again atm and is a serious thought for me as well, pre and post Oblivion. I find your list a bit heavy on the jack side though. Especially since even with S0 helping with BC you can't reliably fuel all your jacks and basically build your game around 1 big turn of Feat. I think thats wasted potential since Vlad1 is best in a long game where he can leverage his insane dice fixing over multible turns. I really enjoy Jonathan Clarkes version he played at the welsh with 3 Marauders on Vlad1 and 2 WGGC which still provide a lot of boxes but also a good amount of shooting, infantry clearing and support on the flanks while being able to work largely unsupported.
Butcher3 is someone I haven't thought to hard about pre Oblivion, but mostly because I don't like him personally. But I see that his is worth a consideration since S0 is out. I am just not sure that he is the right choice vs shooting since he doesn't want to play an Armspam and can't retaliate that well with shooting. That said I wastly prefer your WGK version. It still has a bit of a Solo Problem but I think the Victor in your Jaws version is cute but not competetive.
Summary: Vlad2 List is fine either way, play what suits you.
Second list is also a preference between good choices. Personally I would run either Karchev or Vlad1. If you want to stick to your lists though the one I like most is the S3 list, but I would probably go with Karchev there.
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Post by auraco on Jul 10, 2019 22:56:01 GMT
Couple of things here, skathrex I haven't played the match up but I was under the impression that Vlad2 Wolves would probably do at least ok against Rashet 3 huge base. It would do terrible against the old version of the list with reivers, but nobody runs that version of the list anymore, that change actually looks good for Vlad2, at least on paper. If playing Vlad2 Sorscha3, I would definitively go with Vlad2 against that list, and most other skorne list. You do not want to play armored corps against Siege1, I've played it twice and won it thanks to opponent mistakes but I could clearly see it wasn't a good match up for me, if I was to replay the match up against the same opponent I don't rate my chances of winning very high. As for Butcher3, I really don't see how he could be considered an anti gun drop, he thrives in the same kind of match up as Vlad2, so match ups against melee centric ish armies, since they both have roughly the same kind of good match up (altough they handle them very differently on the table they are strong against the same kind of things) I would never consider pairing them together. There are two way to handle gunlines in khador, with either defensive tech, so Sorscha3, Old witch2 or Zerkova, or with overwhelming firepower of our own, that's what the Vlad1 approach is suppose to do, and why I like it as a choice for an anti gunline list.
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Post by skathrex on Jul 11, 2019 15:34:34 GMT
Interesting. Didn't think of vlad2 WoW into Skorne. How does he fair into the Exalted? I normally play Karchev into Skorne, but I know Reavers under OW2 worked into the old Rasheth list.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 11, 2019 15:49:44 GMT
Interesting. Didn't think of vlad2 WoW into Skorne. How does he fair into the Exalted? I normally play Karchev into Skorne, but I know Reavers under OW2 worked into the old Rasheth list. Skorne exalted is just a grind fest. Since they are not living (sad face) you can't remove the exalted from play and thus you are getting them brought back. Here again the Murder girls shine because an Exalted army for which the murder girls killed either the noviate (tough) and/or the A guardian (+2" Movement) is a SAD exalted army. Noviate dies easy. AG is harder (on a feated "gang" combo strike you are either straight dice or dice-2 (agonizer). Hard part is that with the SG you are effectively losing brittlefrost (spend a soul and stop it from working). One of the reasons that I live the Victor is that I can reduce the distance of the vengance move as well as usually force the advocate to sing the song of Incorp rather than make the exalted higher def.
But the thing people usually overlook about Skorne - kill the support. With the murder girls that is a lot easier ;-)
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