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Post by chillychinaman on Apr 20, 2017 22:37:07 GMT
With the coming of the Exemplar Theme, I look forward to using Errants again, even if it is simply as an AD tarpit.
That said, how has everyone else been using them in Mk3? At least when they weren't using Idrians anyway. I've mostly been using them with D-Ward casters to camp objectives spread out as far they go.
Also, in the hopes that a future CID helps them compete against Idrians, what changes would folks like to see done with them? I'd like to see Assault replaced by Point Blank or maybe Dual Attack. It'd really help them clear infantry alone and stacks with buffs like Ignite.
It'd also be nice if they did something with their guns. They're labeled in game as heavy crossbows and as "Lawbringer" crossbows in IKRPG, but they have the same stats as the regular crossbows that Cutthroats have and worse range then MHSF crossbows. POW11 or ROF2 with RNG12 would be nice.
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Post by greytemplar on Apr 20, 2017 23:27:26 GMT
I think people have simply not been using them.
We pretty much need to wait for CID to help them.
If and when that happens. I think the following would be good changes,
Assault and Unyielding on the base unit. Purity goes back to being always on while the banner is alive. Retain Quick Work. Crossbows go to pow12.
Then the base unit gains some Prayers,
-Marked for Death: choose an enemy model/unit within the command range of the unit leader. Models in this unit gain +2 to damage rolls vs the chosen enemy unit. Marked for death lasts for one round.
-Guidance: Models in this unit can reroll attack rolls. Guidance lasts for one round.
-Creation's Path: Models in this unit gain Pathfinder and Reposition(3). Creation's Path lasts for one turn.
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Post by d3z on Apr 21, 2017 0:42:05 GMT
I hope you don't want all of those changes at once. If I took Creation's Path every turn, I would have MkII Errants again + assault + POW12 bows + unyielding + reposition[3].
Restoring MkII Errants would be fine since we can't do the old 'no KD tough' as easily, but making them way better than ever?
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Post by alanryan on Apr 21, 2017 1:20:04 GMT
use vindi, cast d-ward or his new 1wound spell to errant, then make them to first line, bear enemy's attack,then your venger and KE could charge, and remain errant could charge some middle arm target like light warbeast or solo and make solid damage
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 21, 2017 1:30:24 GMT
the 1 wound spell is vicious, and stacks properly with self sac. Even when stuck in, they're MAT 7 weaponmasters so if you have some left, which you do because of self sac, they'll still get some work done. all I'd wish is minifeat cleanses enemy upkeeps instead of all, and 2 points cheaper.
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 21, 2017 1:46:36 GMT
I actually use them when I don't want to invest 20 points to a ad tar pit. They work great with D-ward, hit pretty hard on the charge and Have good infantry killing tech. To me, they work best without paying for the UA and Idrians work best with the UA. I like Idrians more for sure, but I still think errants can be usefull with the right caster.
Grey Templar Prayers are a little too much. I do think the UA should give them pathfinder or at least relentless charge. That would help a lot. Otherwise I find them to be incredibly usefull in my games.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 21, 2017 1:48:35 GMT
Crossbows were the only weapon ever outlawed by the pope. This was because the amount of force they had (and still have) can penetrate through shield, plate mail, and chainmail with a single shot. This lead to the death of several noble lines and spread chaos throughout Europe.
The defining characteristics of a cross bow is shorter range, high impact, and fatal damage to even heavily armored foes. The large crossbow fixed the shorter range but made it more difficult to fire while on the move. Large crossbows were commonly used to take out heavy armored cavalry and infantry hiding behind wooden fortifications. Taking everything into an account... make them all range 10, give Large crossbows armor piercing.
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Post by dicebedamned on Apr 21, 2017 12:02:01 GMT
Thanks for the history lesson demonic, really interesting. I agree that armour piercing on their crossbows would be good. Stacking with blessed would make them have a real place in lists - high arm low def infantry removal, light jack killers.
I think if they got relentless charge and armour piercing on their crossbows, I would be really happy with them.
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Post by Swampmist on Apr 21, 2017 12:46:20 GMT
yup, we are totally getting p+s 10 armor piercing blessed crossbows in a faction with sevvy1 and incite
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 21, 2017 20:53:20 GMT
yup, we are totally getting p+s 10 armor piercing blessed crossbows in a faction with sevvy1 and incite Seems fair. I would take that into Haley 3 for days ;D
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Post by alanryan on Apr 21, 2017 23:55:23 GMT
Crossbows were the only weapon ever outlawed by the pope. This was because the amount of force they had (and still have) can penetrate through shield, plate mail, and chainmail with a single shot. This lead to the death of several noble lines and spread chaos throughout Europe. The defining characteristics of a cross bow is shorter range, high impact, and fatal damage to even heavily armored foes. The large crossbow fixed the shorter range but made it more difficult to fire while on the move. Large crossbows were commonly used to take out heavy armored cavalry and infantry hiding behind wooden fortifications. Taking everything into an account... make them all range 10, give Large crossbows armor piercing. crossbow can't penetrate through plate, just mail. pop ban crossbow because it's ignore defender's Martial, so i think auto hit is enough
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 22, 2017 0:21:55 GMT
it can't penetrate through plate from far away because the bolt doesn't flex like an arrow. When used at closer range it can easily go through plate as well. Knights were bringing them into close range conflicts and firing them off at other mounted cavalry to knock them off their horse. When it was banned, the pope was trying to find a way to fix the chaos that had broken across Europe. He initiated the crusades as a final counter measure. Yeah, the crusades were staged to unite the nobles of Europe against a single enemy instead of warring against each other.
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Post by WolfsSOL on Apr 22, 2017 1:36:37 GMT
Last night i had a game with Kreoss 3 and i had a unit of errents with Rhupert giving them tough. Hot swapping arcane ward and ignite as needed let them do lots of defencive and offensive work vs Khador jacks and Man-O-Wars.
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Post by chillychinaman on Apr 23, 2017 21:59:38 GMT
Generally speaking, would range buffs, melee buffs, or utility buffs help the unit out more? It seems like people latched out to making their ranged game better to suit the power of real life crossbows, but to play the Devil's advocate, wouldn't that be stepping on Idrians toes? Does that even matter in the coming age of theme forces and redundant/theme specific models? WolfsSOL, have you had any luck against lists that outthreat/outrange them? I played a game against Legion the other day and most of the game they just tiptoed out of the Errants range and pincushioned them.
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Post by WolfsSOL on Apr 23, 2017 23:38:51 GMT
My plan when they are out ranged, is to run them to where they are needed for the scenario. Generally I've got either arcane/defenders ward on them and Rhupert might be in the list giving them tough.
I've found this to let them work as an attrition piece hopefully holding up my opponent. Though number of attacks and access to grievous wounds can really shut this down.
The times it did hold my opponents up i was able to move support pieces to take over on the scenario. This allowed me to send them forward to jam, or if i had the opportunity charge into enemy models.
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