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Post by lorddragonmaster on Jun 3, 2019 17:43:10 GMT
So I finally finished painting my AC list, and have 3 games under my belt (I only get out once a week to play), but am having a really hard time unpacking the list or positioning it. I want to get better, (I’ve been playing JOTW since January when I started with Warmachine), so I was hoping I could lean on some players here for advice. I seem to be tripping over myself. I tend to go 2nd, mostly so I can pick more favorable terrain, and so that my army placement is more “favorable”. What I mean is, I want my Assault chariot to go where there is infantry and can shoot at and not long range gun, or place my strike tankers where the big targets are. Coming from JOTW, I felt there were too many times going first when my Marauders were having to crisscross over the table to reach a target that was strategically placed from them. So let me give you my list: conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0T77f8njl5l4l4l3l2l7l17QgdjJKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Champion [+27] - Victor [34] - Greylord Adjunct [4] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [0(5)] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Man-O-War Assault Chariot [14] I understand you have to adapt to scenario (and I tend to mirror the deployment below depending), but I am just not sure how to unpack or group my units any better then what I show below. - Victor/Vlad/Adjunct/Atanas in the middle. - Shocktroopers/Konik/Strike Tanker to one side (Atanas is closer to them to give them retaliatory strike after they absorb the alpha) - Set of Suppression / Strike Tanker near vlad to hold the middle/cap flags - Demo/chariot to other side to threaten There are a lot of ways this list could be adjusted, but for now it is what I want to get familiar with.  |
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Post by Mr.Human on Jun 3, 2019 19:17:29 GMT
Do you cycle HoF between the Victor and a Tanker? Remember that HoF requires LoS so if you deploy everything upfront Vlad doesn´t see much, so his "bubble" is smaller. Although yes, you most likely start it on your Victor anyway, and cycle it the second turn.
The Chariot is in a good position. I also tend to leave my Shockies somewhat alone to fend for themselves, the Kovnik is as you have it, close to give that extra 2".
I do however feel that you should be concidering going first, if only to spoil your opponents game a bit. I doubt you would deploy your models that different anyway. The Chariot is fast and will never be useless, and that is maybe the one piece that would otherwise be out of action.
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Post by lorddragonmaster on Jun 3, 2019 19:28:14 GMT
Do you cycle HoF between the Victor and a Tanker? Remember that HoF requires LoS so if you deploy everything upfront Vlad doesn´t see much, so his "bubble" is smaller. Although yes, you most likely start it on your Victor anyway, and cycle it the second turn. The Chariot is in a good position. I also tend to leave my Shockies somewhat alone to fend for themselves, the Kovnik is as you have it, close to give that extra 2". I do however feel that you should be concidering going first, if only to spoil your opponents game a bit. I doubt you would deploy your models that different anyway. The Chariot is fast and will never be useless, and that is maybe the one piece that would otherwise be out of action. I start is on Victor, but never thought of swapping it to a Tanker. At most I swap it to the demo corp. I used to try for the Chariot, but it is always too far away. I could try going first, would just be a matter of running more things. |
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Post by borderprince on Jun 3, 2019 19:59:34 GMT
Playing with two huge bases can be tricky. Especially for a theme which tends to bunch up and is fairly slow so struggle to redeploy.
In terms of things to think about:
1 - Advance Moves. How important to you is it to have the Demo Corps moved up as an Advance Move? It might be that moving up one of the Tankers early could be helpful in terms of getting into a good position. Same applies to the Chariot too. I think you're trying to load one flank as it is. That might be right approach sometimes, but not necessarily always.
2 - Is Atanas always closer to the Shock Troopers? Remember that the Tactician bubble applies to MoW models not warriors. So consider trying to have the Chariot in the Atanas bubble for a turn or two to help with unpacking. Might help with the huge base challenge.
3 - Consider having Assail on Victor in turn 1. You can trample 9" in Turn 1 rather than an 8" run. An extra 1" can be important later in the game, as Victor waddles forward using the gun with HoF.
4 - Consider having the Chariot and Suppression Tanker on different sides of Victor and concentrating the Strike Tankers more centrally. The Suppression Tanker and Chariot can both do wonders against infantry. Strike Tankers work well in pairs to really start chipping away at things.
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Post by lorddragonmaster on Jun 3, 2019 20:17:03 GMT
Playing with two huge bases can be tricky. Especially for a theme which tends to bunch up and is fairly slow so struggle to redeploy.
In terms of things to think about:
1 - Advance Moves. How important to you is it to have the Demo Corps moved up as an Advance Move? It might be that moving up one of the Tankers early could be helpful in terms of getting into a good position. Same applies to the Chariot too. I think you're trying to load one flank as it is. That might be right approach sometimes, but not necessarily always.
2 - Is Atanas always closer to the Shock Troopers? Remember that the Tactician bubble applies to MoW models not warriors. So consider trying to have the Chariot in the Atanas bubble for a turn or two to help with unpacking. Might help with the huge base challenge.
3 - Consider having Assail on Victor in turn 1. You can trample 9" in Turn 1 rather than an 8" run. An extra 1" can be important later in the game, as Victor waddles forward using the gun with HoF.
4 - Consider having the Chariot and Suppression Tanker on different sides of Victor and concentrating the Strike Tankers more centrally. The Suppression Tanker and Chariot can both do wonders against infantry. Strike Tankers work well in pairs to really start chipping away at things.
1. Besides the Shocktroopers I really didn't know who to advance move. I've been giving it to the chariot to point a 17" gun at my opponent before I even get to move. 24" Threat on turn one is the same as Victor. I will reconsider who I give it to. 2. Unfortunately Atanas has to be on the shocktrooper side of Victor in order to be within 5" of them to give out his battle plan. Which means the Chariot can't be reached by his bubble. Typically though it is swinging wide, so it rarely interferes with the other MOW. 3. I never thought of that. I'm always hesitant to run him, when I really wanna shoot turn 1 and light things on fire. But getting him 9" up the table is good too. 4. This is a big issue, especially with Victor dead center. Artanas has to be right beside him in order for his 12" bubble to reach, which means my Tankers are gonna be split. I will consider grouping the 2 Striker tankers, and putting the suppression down the left side by the shock troopers. There is the alternate of swapping out a Strike tanker for a 2nd suppression, as I have the spare points (73/75). Thanks for your thoughts. |
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Post by sand20go on Jun 3, 2019 20:24:57 GMT
Playing with two huge bases can be tricky. Especially for a theme which tends to bunch up and is fairly slow so struggle to redeploy.
In terms of things to think about:
1 - Advance Moves. How important to you is it to have the Demo Corps moved up as an Advance Move? It might be that moving up one of the Tankers early could be helpful in terms of getting into a good position. Same applies to the Chariot too. I think you're trying to load one flank as it is. That might be right approach sometimes, but not necessarily always.
2 - Is Atanas always closer to the Shock Troopers? Remember that the Tactician bubble applies to MoW models not warriors. So consider trying to have the Chariot in the Atanas bubble for a turn or two to help with unpacking. Might help with the huge base challenge.
3 - Consider having Assail on Victor in turn 1. You can trample 9" in Turn 1 rather than an 8" run. An extra 1" can be important later in the game, as Victor waddles forward using the gun with HoF.
4 - Consider having the Chariot and Suppression Tanker on different sides of Victor and concentrating the Strike Tankers more centrally. The Suppression Tanker and Chariot can both do wonders against infantry. Strike Tankers work well in pairs to really start chipping away at things.
Solid suggestions.....
Here would be mine (nothing that contradicts BP but just extends it)
Part of what will help you on Turn 2 is thinking about the various ranges for the support and semisupport in your list.
A) You want to have that Kovnick a max of 13 inches (12 is usually best to accomodate for anything strange in order of activation) from a grunt from EITHER unit so he can move and star action desperate pace.. That way you have maximum flexibility as to where Desperate pace goes. Given that I like Kovnik, all other things being equal, central.
B) Altanas has a _9_ inch move and battleplan range. That is NOTHING. So you need to ascertain which unit needs what the most. That is the side that Altanas should go on - freeing room in the middle.
C) Surpression and Chariot have similar roles. They probably should go opposite. As noted - You can hide DemoCorp behind the Chariot and then come forth to smite.
D) You absolutely need to have Victor relevant ASAP. I find that the games that I lose I TEND to be slow. That really can mean on Bottom of 1 you MUST RUN and that it can be a trap to walk and shoot. I KNOW that it is a tasty gun - but if you do that you have a good chance of getting locked out. One thing to think about - make sure Victor is in Run range of a square zone if you have one in the scenario you are playing as you want to score ASAP.
E) Cycling HoF is 14 inch (6 inch walk, 2 inches from Adjunct, base 6 inch range). Plan where you want Vlad to provide for that flexibility.
You can do a lot of this by using your 2 proxies to ascertain where Vlad and where the Kovnik are likely to be after bottom of 1. Drop those. Then move the unit that will NOT be getting desperate pace to ensure you have a grunt within 12 inches of the proxy.. Then the kovnik. Then the unit that DID get DP.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 3, 2019 23:59:24 GMT
All really good advice so far. Two more cents:
1) I would deploye the Suppression on the opposite side from the Chariot. I would advance move on the Suprression.
2) I would advance move the Shocks and give them desperate pace turn 1.
3) I would definitely go turn 1 if you win the roll in most cases.
4) I like advance moving the Chariot. You can line your chariot up behind a single file squad of demo corp and advance move through them on turn 1 if you want a more compact deployment (especially useful if going first).
5) I would definitely put Assail on Victor turn 1 and always, always trample him out to go max distance. Firing turn 1 is a trap. You’re giving up way too much melee presence, scoring capabilities, and utility on the secondary batteries if you shoot turn 1.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 4, 2019 8:31:41 GMT
Just to echo
And @armchair Warrior
You should not be shooting with Victor Turn 1*, but getting the board position you need for later in the game. Victor's gun is great, but not worth 34 points by itself. You need to be utilising his melee threat (even if not always actually entering into melee) to really get value from him. Opponents have to remember that Victor under Vlad2 has an 11" charge threat (with Assail) and can take down almost any other model in the game, especially with the free charge (whether that is better or worse that Hand of Fate will be contextual). You need to have that making opponents cautious about bringing their valuable models forward or into scenario play.
*The exception would be a gotcha moment, so very unlikely. Something like your opponent moving a fast caster too far forward on zero camp (maybe relying on Stealth or similar to keep them safe). Getting a boosted incendiary hit on that caster might be game ending. But this should be very corner case.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 4, 2019 9:01:02 GMT
Just to throw in my two cents here; depending on the scenario I will sometimes put the MoW units central and close together and advance them both straight up the middle. When you split your forces (as you do in the pictures) you need to take into account the fact that your guys are so slow that they can't support each other. This leaves you entirely dependent on Viktor to support both sides, which can be tricky.
Viktor has a long enough range that you can put him in a flanking position and he can still project across the battlefield. The Assault Chariot is fast enough to reposition effectively, too. I'd use them as the anchors on your flanks; remember that Viktor only needs to be within 14" of Vlad2 to get focus, and technically to be buffable (SPD6 + 6rng +2 from adjunct on the buffs)
If you're going first, consider putting the Assault Chariot dead centre and advance moving it if you're up against an infantry army. You can threaten a huge amount of your opponent's force with a T1 run: 7 DZ + 7 Adv. Move + 14 run is 28", and with a 17" threat range you've got an enormous amount of the board threatened from there. Watch out for high power shooting, though.
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Post by lorddragonmaster on Jun 4, 2019 14:31:27 GMT
Thanks all for all the advice, I really appreciate it. I’ve been reviewing my deployment and believe I have taken away some key points: 1. Assail & Trample Victor – Get him 9” up the board 2. Have Victor align to get in a square zone / favor him on one side to allow key units/solos in the centre so they aren’t blocked by him and can share their abilities 3. Split the Assault chariot / suppression tanker (or Siege Chariot & strike tankers) 4. Keep Konick & Atanas within reach of both units Victor was really acting as a wall dividing my own forces, which wasn’t benefiting me (old habit of keeping a jack near the caster coming off Harevich being B2B). I’ve adjust my deployment accordingly. Advance moves – Suppression tanker, Shock troopers, Chariot  Turn 1 -Kovnik move and desperate paces shock troopers -Atanas battle plans (retaliatory strike) on shock troopers and runs -Vlad cast assail on victor, arcane might on self and walks (adjunct follows) -Victor tramples into zone -Suppression tanker walks -Striker Tankers run -Demo corp runs -Chariot walks and takes shots (AOE so even if missing drifts might catch) before repo. |
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Post by sand20go on Jun 4, 2019 19:32:12 GMT
This all looks solid (absent terrain which will make things different). My only suggestion is to
A) Favor Altanas more toward the right. He really wants to be able to get battleplans onto the DC and it looks like you might be a bit from the grunt
B) Hold DC UA back further. You don't want to lose him. He can't get the feat token as a character.
C) No reason not to create a wall for Vlad2 behind objective and then put the flag dude B2B with it. Better than hugging Altanas's but
D) Now you have gone and made me want to get my Vlad2 AC list out again and play it. Might have to this weekend ;-)
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Post by borderprince on Jun 4, 2019 19:35:36 GMT
Looks better.
One comment, which will definitely be situation dependent, but don't assume the chariot has to stay wide. It's fast enough to scoot back towards the centre a bit on Turn 1 (diagonal move to also be moving forwards). Might be valuable if you want to use it to shield the Demo Corps or something like that. |
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156 
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Post by smoth on Jun 5, 2019 16:11:27 GMT
Move shockies in groups of 3 pile up turn 2/3
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 5, 2019 20:35:53 GMT
Keep in mind that you don’t need Atanas near ALL of your grunts. You could, for instance, split your MOWST to either side of Victor in order to play Victor more centrally.
Also, I don’t love your Supression tanker way the heck out there in left field not near your Shocks at all. It will be too easy for him to be trapped out there and irrelevant. He’s also a nifty feat target.
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