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Post by shicato on Apr 21, 2019 17:04:48 GMT
Played a CID game with double void archons under Jaga Jaga and while my opponents list wasn't ideal (no real infantry to speak of so no tough concerns or soul collection), they definitely felt like they were playable at the least even with paying for them.
I'm going to try to get a game in with them under Helga at some point because that seems like a pretty great interaction
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Post by Azahul on Oct 9, 2019 3:15:01 GMT
Alrighty, so the Primal Archon has been out for a hot minute and the Void Archon's stats have been spoiled. Dhunian Archon still a little ways off, but that feels like enough to get some discussion going.
I've played a few games with the Primal Archons so far. Running two mostly feels like running a strictly inferior Brun and Lug, but a single Archon pushes the comparison more towards a combat light Warbeast and I don't dislike them in that role. The bigger problem is more that combat lights aren't usually all that useful barring the ability to get them to trade up efficiently, which is a bit of a struggle when these things can't receive battlegroup buffs. I might feel a bit more favourably inclined towards them if in any of my games the auto-knockdown had actually come up, but sadly I am just swimming in steady opponents. On the flipside, the Roiling Earth ability is surprisingly useful given the number of popular models with Vengeance in the meta. Locking down half a unit of Ravagers felt pretty good, even if it did cost the Archon its life.
I've only got CID games under my belt for the Void Archon, but I really enjoyed every moment I spent with it in CID and the only difference now is that it's a tad more resilient. It comfortably has the best offensive output of any Archon, has incredible mobility tricks and assassination potential, and can make up for its relative fragility by using Void Walk and terrain to hide away from the enemy entirely. We've got a few cute buffs for it in faction as well, such as Boomhowler2 being able to give them Void Walk for an 11" retreat after killing something. And while going Incorporeal is pretty pointless on the surface, I do like that it can be used at the end of the Archon's activation to allow other models to charge through it. That's pretty neat when it's a large base model that you want to put in melee with a hard target so that another model (probably another large base heavy) can finish the job. It also means that Arkadius can use them as Feat beacons without repercussions if he so chooses. Dark Shroud and Entropic Force are of course massive new additions to the WWFF toolbox, so this guy is really straining my patience and normal reluctance to use proxies. Have a tournament just before the Void Archon releases though, so I guess I can wait that long before succumbing to temptation.
I guess we did see the front of the Dhunian Archon's card, so we know that she remains the cheapest Archon without much hitting power and our theme forces (well, Thornfall and WWFF) both allow us to take her as a free option. I'm certainly interested to see how she made it out of CID, since I felt she had the potential to up Thornfall's game considerably, but I'm not 100% her CID rules actually realised that potential.
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Post by mydnight on Oct 9, 2019 8:40:42 GMT
I've played a few games with the Primal Archons so far. Running two mostly feels like running a strictly inferior Brun and Lug, but a single Archon pushes the comparison more towards a combat light Warbeast and I don't dislike them in that role. How is two inferior? More accurate than Lug, can't yoyo but far more threatening with knockdown with countercharge, which Lug can't do. ANd because there's two they can block off more area. No fury management to worry about. Primal is still probably best with Maelok, but I can see Jaga or even Barnie2 running them. Jaga has the bonus of assassinating with feat by sac'ing one of them for a S&P boosted pwr 19. Heck if you look at a boneswarm and compare it to a Primal, even with the pot and Barnie2, the Primal comes out on top except for the access to the animus.
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Post by Azahul on Oct 9, 2019 9:58:33 GMT
How is two inferior? More accurate than Lug, can't yoyo but far more threatening with knockdown with countercharge, which Lug can't do. ANd because there's two they can block off more area. No fury management to worry about. Primal is still probably best with Maelok, but I can see Jaga or even Barnie2 running them. Jaga has the bonus of assassinating with feat by sac'ing one of them for a S&P boosted pwr 19. Heck if you look at a boneswarm and compare it to a Primal, even with the pot and Barnie2, the Primal comes out on top except for the access to the animus. In a nutshell, two are inferior to Lug because you can't provide them with the damage buffs that Lug can get. You're investing 16 points into two models that will struggle to kill a heavy between them. Losing Return is a big deal too, it makes Lug into a heavy with pseudo-Sprint and that allows him to do work slowly early game and make his points back. Those aren't the biggest deals in the world, but the Archons just don't offer much to make up for that difference. The knockdown counter charge is cute, but so threatening and so easy to shut down that your opponent should never let it actually happen. Being able to cover more board space is good, to be sure, but the difference between needing to shut down one counter charge and two isn't so big that it will cause any serious problems for anything but the lowest of low model count armies.
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Post by Dirhavel on Oct 9, 2019 10:40:07 GMT
While it's true that they can't benefit from the damage animus, I've found that the Primals take whatever buffs you CAN give them really well. Especially defensive buffs of course, like Death Pact or Execration of Blackest Night, but also offensive ones like Fury, Dark Shroud, etc. I also agree that the Roiling Earth has been more consistently useful than the Countercharge, it prevents so many movement shenanigans like reposition, sprint, sidestep, overtake, energiser, etc. It's one of those abilities that plays a lot better on the table than it seems on paper. The anti-summoning bubble has also come up a couple times for me, so that's something to keep in mind if you have infernal players in your meta. As for Void Archons, I haven't played them since CID either, but I think they'll unlock a lot of lists with their utility and versatility. I'm especially looking forward to trying them with Rask, Jaga-Jaga, Arkadius and Helga, but they could play well with every caster really. I'me even tempted to try out a WWFF Maelok list to play all the archons at once
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Oct 10, 2019 22:05:04 GMT
So having now cranked games with proxying void archons, they are such a game changer and answer to a lot of the meta picks. Made a harbinger player quite sad last night since turning off awe and martyrdom makes her not that strong of a caster anymore, but also Tharn Ravagers and Chosen of Everblight are suddenly less defensive. so many matchups just get sured up by them
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Post by Azahul on Oct 11, 2019 0:46:36 GMT
Heh, if the Dhunian Archon has the "Living" limitation stripped from her Vision-esque ability then Maelok with six Archons could be a pretty entertaining list to see in action. I'd even give good odds that it'd be reasonably competitive. The Oblivion releases feel like they've received a bit more tweaking post-CID than normal (per the Void Archon getting two boxes, the Thamarite Advocate's spell list shifting a little from her Week 2 iteration, etc.), so there is hope on that front. I am real interested in seeing the back of the Dhunian Archon's card, as the only one of the lot available as a Requisition option she's a bit easier to fit into lists so long as she offers something of value.
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Post by Dirhavel on Oct 11, 2019 10:28:38 GMT
Heh, if the Dhunian Archon has the "Living" limitation stripped from her Vision-esque ability then Maelok with six Archons could be a pretty entertaining list to see in action. I'd even give good odds that it'd be reasonably competitive. The Oblivion releases feel like they've received a bit more tweaking post-CID than normal (per the Void Archon getting two boxes, the Thamarite Advocate's spell list shifting a little from her Week 2 iteration, etc.), so there is hope on that front. I am real interested in seeing the back of the Dhunian Archon's card, as the only one of the lot available as a Requisition option she's a bit easier to fit into lists so long as she offers something of value. IIRC, Hungerford mentionned in his Thornfall insider that the Dhunian archons gained Shepherd's Call, which was never in CID. That's something
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Post by charlzheimer on Oct 11, 2019 12:07:13 GMT
Heh, if the Dhunian Archon has the "Living" limitation stripped from her Vision-esque ability then Maelok with six Archons could be a pretty entertaining list to see in action. I'd even give good odds that it'd be reasonably competitive. The Oblivion releases feel like they've received a bit more tweaking post-CID than normal (per the Void Archon getting two boxes, the Thamarite Advocate's spell list shifting a little from her Week 2 iteration, etc.), so there is hope on that front. I am real interested in seeing the back of the Dhunian Archon's card, as the only one of the lot available as a Requisition option she's a bit easier to fit into lists so long as she offers something of value. IIRC, Hungerford mentionned in his Thornfall insider that the Dhunian archons gained Shepherd's Call, which was never in CID. That's something support solo with vengeance options then? i mean. suddenly removing 1 fury of a bunch of warbeasts can do alot for farrow fury management.
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Oct 11, 2019 23:21:45 GMT
IIRC, Hungerford mentionned in his Thornfall insider that the Dhunian archons gained Shepherd's Call, which was never in CID. That's something support solo with vengeance options then? i mean. suddenly removing 1 fury of a bunch of warbeasts can do alot for farrow fury management. Using just shepherds call alone I had already brewed up and slight tested bringing back Carver battle boar/ light spam since the fury management exists and it was surprisingly good
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Post by charlzheimer on Oct 15, 2019 7:15:25 GMT
someone spoiled the card on facebook. she has shepards call. she can negate 1 damage roll on a non warlock warrior model by taking d3 damage herself. and she heals others if a model dies in her command and gets +2 str and arm. she is this weird support model. personally for its cost she can help out certain heavy beast spam or mixed infantry armies. i think running 2 of them with carver could indeed work out well.
question tough.
DOES rorsh count as a "non-warlock" warrior model?
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Post by Azahul on Oct 15, 2019 12:17:28 GMT
The lessers are explicitly not Warlocks, so yeah, she's fine.
Her being able to cancel damage on other Archons makes her very interesting. That Maelok build with six Archons actually seems like it'd have serious legs honestly.
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Post by Dirhavel on Oct 15, 2019 12:37:38 GMT
Her being able to cancel damage on other Archons makes her very interesting. That Maelok build with six Archons actually seems like it'd have serious legs honestly. Doesn't work unfortunately, Threads of Life specifies Living Warrior models. Honestly I'm not sure she'll be all that worth it in WWFF. She can save lesser warlocks, yes, but they're not that easy to kill to begin with. And the Shepherd's Call seems like it would be better with a beast gunline, which isn't Minions' strength anyway. Otherwise I think it'll just remove 1 or 2 fury per turn, which is ok but nothing amazing. I can see her value in Thornfall infantry spam list, to save two guys per turn and heal each other off. They seem pretty niche overall though EDIT : Maybe the ability to keep solos and valkyries alive will be enough to make them worth a spot in WWFF, but I'll need to see it on the table. The opportunity cost is hight with those wwff solos!
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Post by charlzheimer on Oct 15, 2019 14:19:51 GMT
since i'm home now. (the aforemention facebook leak. some guy got a full art card)
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Post by Azahul on Oct 15, 2019 22:40:56 GMT
Doesn't work unfortunately, Threads of Life specifies Living Warrior models. Ah, that's a shame. Not being a Facebook user I basically just go off what's posted here. I was half-considering the Dhunian Archons in WWFF if they could protect other Archons (particularly Voids), but seeing as that's off the table that does seem to basically relegate them to Thornfall lists. Taking two in Thornfall seems pretty reasonable, but doesn't really fix the issues with the regular Midas build. They seem a lot stronger in Trolls, where Champions are basically the perfect unit for them to support (easy to spread damage across a lot of models, then heal that damage as others die). It is a little disappointing for a model billed as the "ultimate" support model, but they're not flat out bad. Just niche.
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