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Post by Azahul on Apr 11, 2019 23:17:29 GMT
So, pending the actual rules going up for CID in about a week, it looks like we'll have access to the Primal and Dhunian Archons and maaaaaybe the Void Archon (all the factions they've confirmed for it have been Warmachine so far that I've seen, but Skorne and possibly Legion seem like reasonable contenders for it). I expect them to change the free solo wording in WWFF to preclude them, but they should at least be available in the theme. That gives us, at minimum, an Archon described as the "ultimate support solo", plus a combat beatstick who shuts down LOTF's ability to raven to any model within a 12" aura.
If any of them drop as low as 7 points then Arkadius is going to be interested, since he's got a Warbeast point threshold high enough to still get four free solos after paying that much for a model that doesn't count. Beyond that though, they're most likely costing a free solo for most lists so... we'll need to see how the stats shake out I guess.
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Post by overmind on Apr 11, 2019 23:51:52 GMT
So, pending the actual rules going up for CID in about a week, it looks like we'll have access to the Primal and Dhunian Archons and maaaaaybe the Void Archon The primal, void and Dhunian were confirmed as minions. Legion has primal, so I guess skorne has void? Anyways, I think it'll be cool assuming they get added to themes properly(assuming primal for blindwater Dhunian for thornforge and hopefully all three in WWFF) It might mean dropping to three free solos though and I'm not sure where you find the points for that.... (I've been running azahuls arkadius list recently and can't think of what I'd give up).
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Post by Azahul on Apr 12, 2019 0:19:54 GMT
The primal, void and Dhunian were confirmed as minions. Legion has primal, so I guess skorne has void? Ah, excellent. That does make sense Generally speaking, the "flexible" elements of the Arkadius list in my mind are the Gun Boars, Kwaak and Gub, and the Mist Speaker. The Sturm and Drang list plays well into about 80-90% of the match-ups that I feel I need magic weapons for, Kwaak and Gub are fantastic but not integral to what the list does, and the Gun Boars give a lot of different options ranging from spot removal, early game pre-Feat attrition, additional assassination threat, and so on. The "core" of the list is the two War Hogs and two Road Hogs that do the grunt work on Feat turn, and now Mire and the Wrastler who hand out Rage like candy. Targ is probably a given because Herding is sometimes necessary and Ancillary Attack plus Raw Adrenaline is a phenomenal combination, though his stock drops a bit if the Gun Boars disappear entirely. And the Witch Doctor, of course, is vital. If, for example, the Dhunian Archon costs 9 points and has some kind of absolutely phenomenal bit of support, I would strongly consider dropping a single Gun Boar and... probably the Mist Speaker. Particularly if the Archon in question has some means of handing out magic weapons. The Devs made passing mention to the Dhunian Archon's ability to mass heal, which I rather like the sound of. Between Kwaak, Targ, and Psycho Surgery there's already a reasonable amount of healing available in the list. I've restored upwards of 12 health to a War Hog in a single turn between those models in the past. It's semi-edge case, in that this isn't a game where that kind of healing is often required, but it helps when you're doing that early game jockeying for position and your opponent is beginning to chip away at your heavies.
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Post by gobber on Apr 12, 2019 0:45:33 GMT
overmind correct, skorne gets the void archon. It's described as visually half void spirit half cyriss-like construct, and they implied it has void walk just like the void spirits. Definitely going to need to convert some of the dhunian archons to look as much like valkyries as I can. I'm really hoping that the support effects include something like earth's blessing or the lys' healer's power of faith, finally resulting in Helga getting the immunity to knockdown/stationary she's always wanted.
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Post by Azahul on Apr 12, 2019 4:49:00 GMT
An immunity to knockdown would be interesting for Helga for sure, doubly so if Thornfall Alliance gets updated to allow the Dhunian Archon. It's not really top of my list of things I'd want though... but mind you, I'm not sure what is. And 8-9 point solo that also costs you a free solo slot (in WWFF, in Thornfall it'd be reasonably easy to afford) has a high, high bar to meet in order to offer something compelling. Honestly I honestly think it'd need to provide a Krielstone Aura or something on that level to be worth the cost. Rapid Healing for friendly models in an 8" bubble? It's far too high a price tag to pay for immunity to knockdown, when that's the domain of 3-4 point solos that usually do other interesting things as well. Obviously it wouldn't just be on its own, but I don't think piling on a bucketload of good-but-not-great rules onto their cards would be the way to make their point costs back. I dunno though. I won't say no to anti-knockdown tech, and we'll see for sure in a week (and then absolutely for sure another three months down the road ). I have well and truly got the new model jitters The last release we got was Mire, who was such a huge boon for the pig side of the faction. After so long since the Blindwater CID, which I only kind of half-used anyway as a principally Thornfall player, the prospect of multiple releases at once (three Archons, possibly one or two others in the "nearly a dozen" non-Archon models in the Oblivion CID) is exciting.
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Post by gobber on Apr 12, 2019 8:11:07 GMT
Rapid healing would be sweet...for trolls and beasts, but not so much for pig infantry (besides valks, which aren't the ones that need the help). It's really hard to figure out buffs that would work equally well for both and be worth the price. I would not be suprised if it's also a fountain of rerolls (seeing as the knot and calandra both do that) or some sort of fury support (free animi?). Pigs worship dhunia and the warlocks get their magic from her, so I'd assume it ends up in Thornfall.
Not sure the primal archon will be that useful for the pig side (beyond shutting down LotF). Should be pretty hard to kill with buffs from Sturm or Maelok though.
As for the void archon... Large base and the ability to place itself behind models with void walk? That's a recipe for Helga feat backstop hijinks
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Post by Azahul on Apr 12, 2019 10:37:36 GMT
Hahahaha, I hadn't considered the Void Archon with Helga play. That's super cute, hopefully makes her personal run more reliable. Still too many steps to make her competitive though.
I've... not given up on Thornfall infantry, exactly, but I think any meta where Circle is in play is probably a poor time to be trying to make Thornfall infantry relevant. Possibly it boils down to Warbeasts just being way more style than Infantry (oh Bone Grinder spam, I do miss you a little), but I can't imagine an Archon lifting Thornfall up to the point where it's competitive. Never say never though, Mire lifted Sturm to the top all on his lonesome.
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Post by gobber on Apr 12, 2019 23:17:44 GMT
Oh the void archon won't be enough on its own, neither will the dhunian archon. Beyond the steady or earth's blessing effects, my main wishlist is basically to make her an elite valkyrie: +1 mat and pow (the valks around her are more accurate, pow12 base is weak for a melee caster and her buffs are tough to set up) Assault>Point blank (moving the assault shot to after the feat knockdown is effectively an extra attack in her assassination run, which can then qualify for gangfighter/feat damage) Righteous Vengeance: more move tricks and thematic for the valkyrie leader.
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Post by gobber on Apr 17, 2019 17:37:00 GMT
Dhunian archon: cost 7 divine manifestation threads of life passive (basically martyrdom, 1/turn, when friendly non warlock disabled, take d3 to remove a hp) final embrace: when destroyed: heal d3 (unless destroyed by threads of life) cmd 10, enemies with soul tokens -2 atk/dam soul ward 10in
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Post by ajay29 on Apr 17, 2019 17:56:40 GMT
Dhunian archon: cost 7 divine manifestation threads of life passive (basically martyrdom, 1/turn, when friendly non warlock disabled, take d3 to remove a hp) final embrace: when destroyed: heal d3 (unless destroyed by threads of life) cmd 10, enemies with soul tokens -2 atk/dam soul ward 10in Source on this? Any details on the others?
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Post by gobber on Apr 17, 2019 18:16:28 GMT
Dhunian archon: cost 7 divine manifestation threads of life passive (basically martyrdom, 1/turn, when friendly non warlock disabled, take d3 to remove a hp) final embrace: when destroyed: heal d3 (unless destroyed by threads of life) cmd 10, enemies with soul tokens -2 atk/dam soul ward 10in Source on this? Any details on the others? Dev chat. Tuned in too late for the others. CID will drop soon though.
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Post by gobber on Apr 17, 2019 18:31:08 GMT
At least for now, they have not been written into themes, which sucks for Thornfall but means they're free options in WWFF! Hot takes: Void Archon seems downright incredible. Helga's gonna adore these beyond believe. Feated backstop gangfighter hijinks with flight/incorp *and* Dark Shroud *and* grievous wounds aura *and* a dual attack spray 10? Be still my beating heart. Semi-reliably proc'ing her feat damage buff is wonderful; that's +5.5 damage for infantry or +9.5 for herself or beasties. Helga is now actually a scary assassin and capable of chunking down a heavy herself. Primal Archon seems alright, Dhunian Archon's one martyrdom a round seems pretty underwhelming compared to expectations of being the best support in the game...
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Post by Azahul on Apr 17, 2019 20:59:13 GMT
In addition to the Archons, we also get access to the Thamarite Advocate (it works for Circle) and the Mad Hermit. So quite a lot of new options for WWFF.
That said, the Archons aren't entirely jaw-dropping. Cool, but outside of the Void Archon they don't offer too many abilities so good I want to windmill slam them into all my lists.
...Void, on the other hand. Hoo boy. Entropic Force and Soul Ward is a fantastic double screw-you to Protectorate, mucking with Harbinger and HR to name the obvious culprits so goodness knows my Arkadius list is going to include one, two if I can figure out a way to fit it and the solos I want. And Dark Shroud is insane. Probably can't keep up with Arkadius's list, even with Void Walk, unless your opponent gives it something to charge so that you can get an extra 3" movement before the Void Walk. Being able to trigger that rule off of the spray though makes it really flexible in how it moves around and attacks and supports the army. Easily the standout of the ones available to us.
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Post by gobber on Apr 17, 2019 22:28:31 GMT
Didn't notice those two. Once a game vision plus cheaper access to telemetry are pretty nice. Advocate seems decent?
Until they update the themes you can get 34 free points in WWFF, which sadly means there's no way these are staying free...
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Post by Azahul on Apr 17, 2019 22:33:12 GMT
It'd be disappointing, because I would struggle to fit in the Void Archon if it wasn't free, and I certainly wouldn't ever touch the others. Have they said there are still rules changes pending that they aren't currently testing in CID?
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