|
|
Post by sand20go on Jan 24, 2019 17:55:51 GMT
So a while ago there was a great discussion about poor old Butcher2. A fairly big consensus was that one challenge is that this mechanic of D6+1 is frustrating. Sure, you CAN get 7 focus but that turn that matters rolling 1 feels like "luck" has become critically important and that "sucks" when so much of the game tries to reduce luck as a win factor and raise "skill". Butcher2 flips that on its head and sits as an odd duck.
Now lots of great prior ideas on dealing with this which reduced the variance.
But what about A) Getting back to the fact that 2d6 produces a bell curve and B) that maybe luck SHOULD be what Butcher lives for.
And I think this works because it encourages truly aggressive play - which is ridiculously thematic with Butcher
1) Change Conferred rage from D6+1 to 2D6-2 with the proviso that Butcher can never have less than 1 focus. Now rolling snake eyes or a 3 "hurts" really bad but when you roll box cars.... ;-)
2) Increase the number of things that butcher has to kill to 4....but if he does 10 focus baby!!!
3) Let Rage Tokens last a ROUND and allow them to be used to Reinforce the power field.
Those changes suddenly do wonders in encouraging you to try to live on the edge and really make your feat count. _IF_ you can do it, Butcher can play aggressively forward because he (or others) in the army will fill him up with rage tokens even if he blows his focus stack. Even if he only rolls up 1 or 2 focus, he can still get aggressive because he can either not use them....or at least get three rage tokens so that he isn't shot off the board that turn.
I REALLY wish they (and lets be precise, Soles) had allowed Butcher 2 to be in the Wolves CID. He is fantastic caster but so underused because of how, out of 150 casters, there is so much luck with him and, in all honestly, there is a LOT more downside to that luck than upside (aka, 2 focus is a killer, 7 focus is a nice to have but doesn't make him a battlefield god in a world with LOTS of casters with effectively much more)
|
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Jan 24, 2019 19:14:54 GMT
I'd rather just have his focus be D3+4, or even D3+3 or something like that if they want to keep things random. Having the possibility of being stuck with 1 or 2 focus for a turn is just such a turn off.
|
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Jan 24, 2019 19:20:09 GMT
I'd rather just have his focus be D3+4, or even D3+3 or something like that if they want to keep things random. Having the possibility of being stuck with 1 or 2 focus for a turn is just such a turn off. But he is always going to be random (per the powers that be). So what I want to do is maximize the upside if I am going to accept that downside....and I want a way (using rage tokes to overboost the power field) if I am going to have him hanging out in the wind even if I only rolled a 2 forcus.
As is, you HAVE to play him conservatively because, like Forest Gump, you just never know what that roll is going to be and prudence says, expect a 1.
|
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Jan 24, 2019 19:28:47 GMT
Did they actually say they want to keep him at super random focus? There is a reason why people don't actually play him in competitive setting, or well if people do they don't perform. Being random and missing focus on a key turn is just unpleaseant.
|
|
|
|
Post by cplmustard on Jan 24, 2019 20:07:36 GMT
A whole lot of focus does you no good if everyone places their models 12" away from butcher, besides, butcher3 has access to 12 focus on his feat turn when you need it, with a better threat range. I think the direction to go would be to make him into a truly scary melee support caster.
To start, align conferred rage with alpha hunter and give back free power attacks/charges, this gives him a reason to take jacks and makes both rules more consistent.
Next, change his focus to 2d3+1, gives a range from 3 FOC to 7 FOC without being more complicated than his current version, most of the time he'll sit around 5 FOC, which is low, but manageable.
Finally, change his feat to add the following: once per activation, models can spend one rage token to advance 3". Give a little pacmaning potential to rage token recipients and give butcher himself a way of chopping his way through gaps in his feat turn, even if it's only once.
All of this finally gives him a reason to exist alongside the other butchers without (I think) pushing him over the top, it mostly just makes him more consistent which is really all he needs imo.
|
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Jan 24, 2019 21:13:27 GMT
A whole lot of focus does you no good if everyone places their models 12" away from butcher, besides, butcher3 has access to 12 focus on his feat turn when you need it, with a better threat range. I think the direction to go would be to make him into a truly scary melee support caster. To start, align conferred rage with alpha hunter and give back free power attacks/charges, this gives him a reason to take jacks and makes both rules more consistent. Next, change his focus to 2d3+1, gives a range from 3 FOC to 7 FOC without being more complicated than his current version, most of the time he'll sit around 5 FOC, which is low, but manageable. Finally, change his feat to add the following: once per activation, models can spend one rage token to advance 3". Give a little pacmaning potential to rage token recipients and give butcher himself a way of chopping his way through gaps in his feat turn, even if it's only once. All of this finally gives him a reason to exist alongside the other butchers without (I think) pushing him over the top, it mostly just makes him more consistent which is really all he needs imo. actually.....
Having played against the "better"/non random Butcher2 the other Week I can tell you that having 10 focus would be WONDERFUL and not at all irrelevant. Makeda 3 is everything Butcher wishes he was ;-) and having 10 focus could allow you (humerously) to case Elmininator a whole bunch of times ;-)
|
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jan 24, 2019 21:29:09 GMT
Did they actually say they want to keep him at super random focus? There is a reason why people don't actually play him in competitive setting, or well if people do they don't perform. Being random and missing focus on a key turn is just unpleaseant. Yes. I got that straight from multiple devs. Random focus is non-negotiable. |
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jan 24, 2019 21:31:44 GMT
.... Makeda 3 is everything Butcher wishes he was ;-) ... I’ve been saying that for years, even before she picked up her recent kit changes. If you want a fun Butcher2, you should try out mine. But, eh, my Butcher2 ire is spent. |
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Jan 25, 2019 7:23:02 GMT
He should have been given a reaver axe and soul collector in his v2...problem solved
|
|
|
|
Post by smoothcriminal on Jan 25, 2019 14:20:29 GMT
Can we just have him be at 6 focus +1 if he kills 3 things? Or 4+3? Would that be OP? It's pretty obvious at this point random focus caster is unplayable in a competitive game build around focus management. You can nerf some of his abilities if you think that would be too strong.
|
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jan 25, 2019 14:29:30 GMT
Can we just have him be at 6 focus +1 if he kills 3 things? Or 4+3? Would that be OP? It's pretty obvious at this point random focus caster is unplayable in a competitive game build around focus management. You can nerf some of his abilities if you think that would be too strong.
The random focus mechanic is part of his core design and will not change, per Word of God in June 2018. Smoothing out his consistency in the interim, without making him completely overwhelming if/when you DO finally get 7 focus, is the hard part. |
|
|
|
Post by anderfreak on Jan 28, 2019 21:12:06 GMT
d6+1 is fine by me, I just wish they'd restore him to his Mk2 rules and give him some focus-independent defensive tech.
The worst part about a 2 focus turn for me was keeping him alive for the next turn.
repo 5", defensive strike, an action to whip up a couple clouds. SOMETHING to make the fact that he's camping 0 just a little less fatal.
We still probably wouldn't see him at tournaments but at least he'd be fun to play again.
|
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jan 28, 2019 21:31:25 GMT
d6+1 is fine by me, I just wish they'd restore him to his Mk2 rules and give him some focus-independent defensive tech. The worst part about a 2 focus turn for me was keeping him alive for the next turn. repo 5", defensive strike, an action to whip up a couple clouds. SOMETHING to make the fact that he's camping 0 just a little less fatal. We still probably wouldn't see him at tournaments but at least he'd be fun to play again. Impervious Flesh works wonders. People freak out, but then you look at the math and see that it makes him strictly middle-of-the-road survivable (nothing like Barnabus2 or Makeda3) and something something whatever. |
|
