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Post by sand20go on Jan 9, 2019 16:08:37 GMT
Vlad1 with 4-5 (so 32 to 40 points) of Mad Dogs. The rest would be mid-range hard hitters like the Juggers and then perhaps ONE premium back like a Grolar, Spriggan or even behemoth. You only drop into low model count armies.:
Bottom of 1 or top of 2 feat. Fleet goes on the mad dogs and now you RUN them 18 inches to jam/pin their things. Vlad and the second wave hussle their buts up as best they can.
You then rely upon the fact that it takes effort and resources to remove the mad dogs. Easy at 11/18 and 27 boxes but takes effort. On the next turn you go smash into them - possibly using S&P to buff up the second wave.
Now the big deterrent is getting 4-5 mag dogs bought, assembled, and for some of us painted. But it feels like it would be crazy enough to work. I think the questioin is whether the remaining 60-70 points of jacks/models can get enough work done and whether Vlad1 can adequately power that many things up. Win condition would be to focus on scenario - setting the lines so far back that he doesn't have a chance to catch up.
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Post by borderprince on Jan 9, 2019 16:32:02 GMT
Haven't tried it. But were I to do so, it would be in WGK:
(1) you can either Advance Move the Mad Dogs to be further up the field, or perhaps AM the other jacks so they are not too far behind the Mad Dogs end of Turn 1;
(2) Take Malakov1 too. Vlad1's only BG buff is the Feat, so if you're not using that to get charges with the real jacks you benefit from a hitting power buff and additional focus.
Maybe:
Vlad1
-Berserker
-Berserker
-Berserker
-Mad Dog
-Mad Dog
-Mad Dog
-Mad Dog
Field Gun
Field Gun
Mortar
Mortar (free)
Gun Carriage
Malakov1
-Juggernaut
Berserkers are decent medium hitters under S&P, the Juggernaut is a P+S21 monster and there is quite a bit of shooting here too. All the Mad Dogs get Advance Move. Not sure I'd run it, but it might work. Might actually be worth considering into some higher model count armies (maybe something like Grave Diggers) - use the Berserkers as the front line and then trample + S&P with Mad Dogs to your heart's delight.
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Post by michael on Jan 9, 2019 16:48:42 GMT
Mad Dogs are wastes of space, so no, I haven’t tried it lately.  |
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Post by borderprince on Jan 9, 2019 17:08:47 GMT
Another thought - how set is the 18" move? Butcher3 could get Mad Dogs 15" from the deployment line in WGK (4" Advance Move + 7" Trample + 2" Energizer), which is still pretty impressive if you're just trying to jam with a bunch of pretty tough jacks. And it leaves you with a caster with much more personal threat and a feat to use in the game.
Butcher3
-Mad Dog x3 -Ruin
Field Gun
Field Gun
Mortar
Mortar
Max WGI + UA (or Joe to replace the UA)
Sorscha0
-Mad Dog
Malakov1
-Juggernaut
You've got the jamming Mad Dogs, Sorscha0 significantly enhances Butcher3's personal threat range while her jack is a fire and forget missile so you don't need to worry about feeding it focus later. Even a fair number of sacrificial bodies to keep B3 + Malakov1 alive if Fog of War doesn't help enough.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 9, 2019 17:28:19 GMT
Why would you blow your feat on delivering Mad Dogs into a low model count army? That basically means jacks or beasts, none of whom are particularly threatened by a Mad Dog even under SnP. It also reduces your army to a threat range of 8" on the actual go-turn, which is atrocious.
If you changed the Mad Dogs to Berserkers and saved the feat for the good jacks, then I'd be on board with the plan. But running Mad Dogs like that? Nah.
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Post by sand20go on Jan 9, 2019 18:07:29 GMT
Why would you blow your feat on delivering Mad Dogs into a low model count army? That basically means jacks or beasts, none of whom are particularly threatened by a Mad Dog even under SnP. It also reduces your army to a threat range of 8" on the actual go-turn, which is atrocious. Because 12 inches isn't really a long threat anymore (or at least in my meta). In our =meta alpha is king. Without S0, our ability to alpha with jacks is essentially limited to Strakov1. If you are going to accept the alpha - it is best to do it with the cheapest stuff possible.
Man of Wars do that TO AN EXTENT but currently everyone in my meta essentially starts from the proposition "OK, i need to alpha into ARM 21 shocks with 8 boxes. Tech for that". There are a surprisingly number of things that do that very efficiently and often are a pain to kill as they approach/afterwards. And since Shocks go out for <2.0 a model...
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Post by anderfreak on Jan 9, 2019 18:24:01 GMT
Why would you blow your feat on delivering Mad Dogs into a low model count army? That basically means jacks or beasts, none of whom are particularly threatened by a Mad Dog even under SnP. It also reduces your army to a threat range of 8" on the actual go-turn, which is atrocious. Because 12 inches isn't really a long threat anymore (or at least in my meta). In our =meta alpha is king. Without S0, our ability to alpha with jacks is essentially limited to Strakov1. If you are going to accept the alpha - it is best to do it with the cheapest stuff possible.
Man of Wars do that TO AN EXTENT but currently everyone in my meta essentially starts from the proposition "OK, i need to alpha into ARM 21 shocks with 8 boxes. Tech for that". There are a surprisingly number of things that do that very efficiently and often are a pain to kill as they approach/afterwards. And since Shocks go out for <2.0 a model...
I'd be interested to know what your meta's typical terrain setup is. Because the impression I get is the board is very sparsely populated and your armies just meet at a central line of skrimmage and mash each other. Mk3 is really not a satisfying game IMO without 8-10 meaningful pieces of terrain with LoS blockers and medium obstacles near the center of board to break up the combat. |
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 9, 2019 19:40:42 GMT
Why would you blow your feat on delivering Mad Dogs into a low model count army? That basically means jacks or beasts, none of whom are particularly threatened by a Mad Dog even under SnP. It also reduces your army to a threat range of 8" on the actual go-turn, which is atrocious. Because 12 inches isn't really a long threat anymore (or at least in my meta). In our =meta alpha is king. Without S0, our ability to alpha with jacks is essentially limited to Strakov1. If you are going to accept the alpha - it is best to do it with the cheapest stuff possible.
Man of Wars do that TO AN EXTENT but currently everyone in my meta essentially starts from the proposition "OK, i need to alpha into ARM 21 shocks with 8 boxes. Tech for that". There are a surprisingly number of things that do that very efficiently and often are a pain to kill as they approach/afterwards. And since Shocks go out for <2.0 a model...
Okay, but if 12" isn't sufficient, 8" really isn't. And if you're going to take an alpha either way, your options are a) use a feat, sacrifice the Mad Dogs, take the alpha, or b) don't use your feat, sacrifice the Mad Dogs, take the alpha. At least with option b you can counterpunch really, really hard. If you're in WGK you can be basically half way up the board turn 1 anyway, so the extra distance isn't crucial. I get the plan, I just don't see why you need to use the feat for it. |
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Post by sand20go on Jan 9, 2019 22:30:37 GMT
Because 12 inches isn't really a long threat anymore (or at least in my meta). In our =meta alpha is king. Without S0, our ability to alpha with jacks is essentially limited to Strakov1. If you are going to accept the alpha - it is best to do it with the cheapest stuff possible.
Man of Wars do that TO AN EXTENT but currently everyone in my meta essentially starts from the proposition "OK, i need to alpha into ARM 21 shocks with 8 boxes. Tech for that". There are a surprisingly number of things that do that very efficiently and often are a pain to kill as they approach/afterwards. And since Shocks go out for <2.0 a model...
I get the plan, I just don't see why you need to use the feat for it. Cause 10 inches is 10 inches while 18 is 18. Board space is king when there are scoring elements are far back as they are in SR 2018. |
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Post by sand20go on Jan 9, 2019 22:37:34 GMT
Because 12 inches isn't really a long threat anymore (or at least in my meta). In our =meta alpha is king. Without S0, our ability to alpha with jacks is essentially limited to Strakov1. If you are going to accept the alpha - it is best to do it with the cheapest stuff possible.
Man of Wars do that TO AN EXTENT but currently everyone in my meta essentially starts from the proposition "OK, i need to alpha into ARM 21 shocks with 8 boxes. Tech for that". There are a surprisingly number of things that do that very efficiently and often are a pain to kill as they approach/afterwards. And since Shocks go out for <2.0 a model...
I'd be interested to know what your meta's typical terrain setup is. Because the impression I get is the board is very sparsely populated and your armies just meet at a central line of skrimmage and mash each other. Mk3 is really not a satisfying game IMO without 8-10 meaningful pieces of terrain with LoS blockers and medium obstacles near the center of board to break up the combat. From thinking about recent tables where our meta is likely not doing great is putting LOS blocking terrain on the SIDE ALLEYs. We are following PP guidelines in the middle but often times the side lanes (critical in this package) are more wide open. Thus why long alphas are so important. Interesting conundrum......have to think more about that.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jan 9, 2019 23:15:40 GMT
I get the plan, I just don't see why you need to use the feat for it. Cause 10 inches is 10 inches while 18 is 18. Board space is king when there are scoring elements are far back as they are in SR 2018. In terms of furthest contesting distance, bearing in mind that you need to be within 4" of a flag: 21" for The Pit II 27" for Standoff 26" for Spread the Net 18" for Invasion 25" for Mirage 26" for Recon II In WGK, a standard Khador jack with no speed boosts can get 27-30" up the board by the time scoring starts. 7-10(DZ) + 4(AM) + 8(Run) + 8(Run). Your tactic would let you get jacks out the far side of a lot of contestable elements on turn 1: 7+4+16+2 = 29, which is enough to block off the near zones and flags or the central rectangles in the Pit II. That is... pretty cool, actually. But I still think it's not worth a feat. |
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jan 10, 2019 7:28:41 GMT
Use a couple devastators for the blocking, back them up with a mix of juggernauts, marauders and maybe a berserker or two? At least then you've provided something a bit more significant to get past.
Cheers,
Dave
EDIT: Just had a play around, something like this:
Jaws of the Wolf
Vlad1 +28
-Berserker -8
-Berserker -8
-Berserker -8
-Devastator -14
-Devastator -14
-Devastator -14
-Juggernaut -13
-Juggernaut -13
Greylord Forge Seer -0(4)
Greylord Forge Seer -0(4)
Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff -0(4)
-Marauder -11
Yuri the Axe -0(6)
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Post by Mr.Human on Jan 10, 2019 8:05:08 GMT
I'd say it is not worth it.
What low model count army would have trouble against that and would see play anyway against that?
I'd also say that the terrain will be a problem, you might run into problems trying to get a charge in from your 2nd wave, running up your mad dogs wouldn't be hard, but I imagine your opponent would just chew them up and put some denial/scnerio pieces in front to deny you the trade/points or simply destroy the mad dogs, leaving you impossible/hard to get targets to charge.
Still think going full out jacks don't work well atm with Khador, you need infantry or cavalry. I'd say proxy the thing with S0 and get the models only after she is finally released.
I also kinda like the devastators more, you need two heavies or elite infantry (but you wouldn't play against that with the list) to clear them. Only problem they have, is that they are easy to just throw away.
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