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Post by anderfreak on Dec 3, 2018 20:02:10 GMT
With two Wills leaving without new jobs lined up im starting to thing some highlander type shit went down and hungerford won. Why does everyone forget that Oz is a Will, too? Which Will is the Connor Macleod?
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 3, 2018 20:03:08 GMT
And unfortunately, this is not PP's area to fix, but ours. PP has offered numerous ways to play with our models, but it is the tournament-focused ones who tended to drive the meta at times. GW had a similar standard for customization as PP had, but they still managed to get a lot of customization in there. Both have relaxed a bit, but PP could relax a little more, and more importantly, the organizers can relax that even more. Off hand, I tend to see more painted models in GW games, oddly enough than I do in WMH games. That could mean that there are more hobbyists in GW games, or that GW is easier to get in to for a hobbyist. GW has a lot more plastic lines than PP has, and plastic is easier to work than the white metal is, and the price per model USED to be cheaper, though the price per bit still is. On the first point, I totally agree. However, just in keeping my ear to the ground on the internet, listening to chatter about CID, etc., it feels like there is kind of an "inmates running the asylum" situation. I worry that if WMH goes all-out in trying to cater to the 5-10% of their audience who are top-level hardcore competitive players, that 5-10% won't be enough to support the game by themselves. However, they are also sometimes the most vocal, on CID and elsewhere, and I fear that if both the company and local communities focus on them, the game will become insular and crash and burn as the couple hundred aspiring WTC players aren't enough to support the overhead, tooling, etc., So I agree with the points here to a level. Yeah, it's on us to try to get new players focused on the game by not going all "MOAR STEAMROLLERZ" but PP is doing nothing to help. Steamroller is the defacto standard of how to play, and it is as stale as it can get. No narrative, always symmetrical, its the same stuff year after year, just move the elements around. Yeah, it's great for balance, sure, but they needed a second set of scenarios, with narrative, and cool settings, ect. I think they have catered to the top 10% for so long, that they have let the elites dictate the game to the casuals and in all honesty think its alienated a lot of that casual crowd that is really necessary for a game company to stay afloat...
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 3, 2018 20:11:01 GMT
Eh, if there was actually a sign that balance was worsening this would be a strong argument against an evergreen catalogue, but thats not the case really, signs point to balance actually doing much better than it was last edition. The fact that people aren't happy with it, despite this increased level of balance of tournament placings is another data point in the "competitive balance seems to be the enemy of mass enjoyment" that i've noticed in many competitive games. I agree with you, the current balance is the best I've seen it in the past 8 years, and the fact that balance is currently manageable is due to Theme forces. I don't think adding 40 to 50 news SKUS a year to the roster will be sustainable for much longer though. 5 new models per CID, around 4 to 6 "Full" CIDs a year, plus a new Faction each year, plus smaller CIDs like the Locus and Journeymen, it's going to get nuts. On the flip side... with so many people leaving the company, I don't think we have much to worry about in the case of longevity lol Anyway, I'm putting my money down on a buyout and reboot, wouldn't be the first game that has gone through one, and it won't be the last: Dungeons and Dragons, Battletech, Netrunner, L5R. I mean the game is a strong property, at least according to ICv2 only the FFG's minis lines are a true competitor, even the indie darlings like Guildball don't register in their charts. This is all speculation by the way. My thoughts on new SKU's... I dont think they'll go anywhere near 40 to 50, i think that they're going to plateau, probably very soon and the releases will be things like: Character CA for existing units that provide different abilities to that unit Weapon attachments for existing units New character solos The occasional new warcaster/warlock The purview of new units will likely fall to the limited release factions while using the bells and whistles you can attach to already existing units to tweak the framework of the game.
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 3, 2018 20:13:19 GMT
On the first point, I totally agree. However, just in keeping my ear to the ground on the internet, listening to chatter about CID, etc., it feels like there is kind of an "inmates running the asylum" situation. I worry that if WMH goes all-out in trying to cater to the 5-10% of their audience who are top-level hardcore competitive players, that 5-10% won't be enough to support the game by themselves. However, they are also sometimes the most vocal, on CID and elsewhere, and I fear that if both the company and local communities focus on them, the game will become insular and crash and burn as the couple hundred aspiring WTC players aren't enough to support the overhead, tooling, etc., So I agree with the points here to a level. Yeah, it's on us to try to get new players focused on the game by not going all "MOAR STEAMROLLERZ" but PP is doing nothing to help. Steamroller is the defacto standard of how to play, and it is as stale as it can get. No narrative, always symmetrical, its the same stuff year after year, just move the elements around. Yeah, it's great for balance, sure, but they needed a second set of scenarios, with narrative, and cool settings, ect. I think they have catered to the top 10% for so long, that they have let the elites dictate the game to the casuals and in all honesty think its alienated a lot of that casual crowd that is really necessary for a game company to stay afloat... They do a narrative league every year, they created alt timeline casters for every faction. What more exactly do you need? Lets not forget AOS tanked hard and had to backpedal to create a competitive scene when they chose to discard competition.
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Post by anderfreak on Dec 3, 2018 20:19:23 GMT
So I agree with the points here to a level. Yeah, it's on us to try to get new players focused on the game by not going all "MOAR STEAMROLLERZ" but PP is doing nothing to help. Steamroller is the defacto standard of how to play, and it is as stale as it can get. No narrative, always symmetrical, its the same stuff year after year, just move the elements around. Yeah, it's great for balance, sure, but they needed a second set of scenarios, with narrative, and cool settings, ect. I think they have catered to the top 10% for so long, that they have let the elites dictate the game to the casuals and in all honesty think its alienated a lot of that casual crowd that is really necessary for a game company to stay afloat... They do a narrative league every year, they created alt timeline casters for every faction. What more exactly do you need? Lets not forget AOS tanked hard and had to backpedal to create a competitive scene when they chose to discard competition. I wish they had pushed COI a lot harder. Make it more fully featured as far as customizing your company. Base the yearly narrative league around company of Iron or at least make a specifically COI campaign each year as well.
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 3, 2018 20:29:51 GMT
Not stealing wildlyfrom mordheim was a mistake
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Post by anderfreak on Dec 3, 2018 20:31:44 GMT
Not stealing wildlyfrom mordheim was a mistake Agreed. %100.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 3, 2018 21:02:47 GMT
Does anyone remember the Chaos Warband mini game from GW? that was sweet!
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 3, 2018 21:19:23 GMT
I think i still have a printout of that, i DO have the mordheim rules and a bunch of town cryers tho
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Dec 3, 2018 21:22:18 GMT
So I agree with the points here to a level. Yeah, it's on us to try to get new players focused on the game by not going all "MOAR STEAMROLLERZ" but PP is doing nothing to help. Steamroller is the defacto standard of how to play, and it is as stale as it can get. No narrative, always symmetrical, its the same stuff year after year, just move the elements around. Yeah, it's great for balance, sure, but they needed a second set of scenarios, with narrative, and cool settings, ect. I think they have catered to the top 10% for so long, that they have let the elites dictate the game to the casuals and in all honesty think its alienated a lot of that casual crowd that is really necessary for a game company to stay afloat... They do a narrative league every year, they created alt timeline casters for every faction. What more exactly do you need? Lets not forget AOS tanked hard and had to backpedal to create a competitive scene when they chose to discard competition. Leagues filled with rules and models you cant play outside of that specific league is a difficult sell, and they rarely gained traction from what I've understood. I think there is a real problem when your concessions to the casual crowd are a once a year league that isnt universally playable with anyone outside that league. Also, you mentioned alternate warcasters, cause that's happened twice over the 20 years they've been around? Come on... I think, instead, the SR packet needs to be built so the 90% of the people have a fun, engaging, and exciting game, and if the top 10% arent ok with it, because it's not 100% clinical and sterile, create a separate "masters packet" for use with masters and play that. As far as AoS goes, they point costed everything in there to allow for matched play, that's true, and I'm not saying that having a competitive scene is a bad thing. You're retort seems to suggest that you took offence to my comment. It's fine for a competitive scene for a game to exist. It was a big mistake for GW to abandon it, and I dont think anyone can ever debate that. But GW pulled all official tournament support in 4th edition 40k, and then game survived, and even grew until 7th edition, because....yup....you guessed it...the casual crowd.
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Post by mcdermott on Dec 3, 2018 21:31:09 GMT
Offense? No, i just think that you're pretty easily overlooking the actual casual resources they put forth.
They created journeyman league rules Their yearly league has 4 separate seasons, spanning a month each. The alt casters were a casual summer event They created a halloween event with special rules
The failure of casual is a failure of community, not a failure of support from the company.
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Post by ankiseth on Dec 3, 2018 21:40:55 GMT
Plus NQP had all kinds of little casual games and supplemental Company of Iron rules and generally encouraged “Company of Renown” paint jobs. PP definitely put narrative and casual materials out there.
Short of revitalizing Press Gangers in some workable form, I’m not sure how they could’ve “pushed harder.”
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Post by anderfreak on Dec 3, 2018 22:00:07 GMT
Plus NQP had all kinds of little casual games and supplemental Company of Iron rules and generally encouraged “Company of Renown” paint jobs. PP definitely put narrative and casual materials out there. Short of revitalizing Press Gangers in some workable form, I’m not sure how they could’ve “pushed harder.” I agree for the most part, I was subbed to NQ from #50 until the end . The Company of Iron support was there but it wasn't great. Apart from the new pre-made scenarios, paint schemes, and continuing adaptation of models from warmachine there really wasn't a whole lot of meat to the game in the same way there was for the always spectacular IKRPG content. I really would have liked a progression system for the company and individual models and a map based campaign creation guide with more modular feeling scenarios.
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dnoonan
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 7
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Post by dnoonan on Dec 3, 2018 22:06:37 GMT
How could PP push harder? Well, they (and we) could avoid conflating "casual" and "narrative." The narrative 40k players I know are anything but "casual" in their approach to the hobby and the game.
Want to expand the game beyond the strictly competitive and include more narrative? Here's some things PP could theoretically do:
• Give narrative a place in the rulebook. Many of us love to hate 40k, but their core rulebook has 4 pages for open play, 20 pages for narrative play, and 24 pages for match play.
• Stick with a periodical that regularly has narrative content. Magazines are wicked hard to make, much less make profitably, but I wish they'd given NQP a longer runway.
• Use fiction and game-event content (like 40k's Vigilus Defiant, for example) to advance the game's timeline. I get an Alice-in-Wonderland sensation when I realize that 40k is the game with an advancing storyline, but WMH isn't -- or at least hasn't been lately.
• Experiment with untimed -- or more forgivingly timed -- event formats. In my anecdotal opinion, the big hurdle between intermediate and expert WMH play is being able to play on the clock. If you can do it, great! Just realize that's where a lot of people are tapping out at that point. If narrative WMH were all over the place, no big deal! They'll just shift sidewise and make elaborate recreations of the Thornwood on Thursday nights.
I don't think narrative leagues are the answer in a post-pressgang world, because PP doesn't have a strong enough relationship with FLGS's (speaking broadly, maybe not your store) to really push them out there.
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Post by netdragon on Dec 3, 2018 22:27:59 GMT
Offense? No, i just think that you're pretty easily overlooking the actual casual resources they put forth. They created journeyman league rules Their yearly league has 4 separate seasons, spanning a month each. The alt casters were a casual summer event They created a halloween event with special rules The failure of casual is a failure of community, not a failure of support from the company.
For God's sake.
This is a product and these people were hired to develop it. It's not the community's fault, its on PP and their decisions that made this game what it is.
I'm not saying that anyone who just left was directly responsable, but since the CID structure was implemented the game has been developing into a "big army with many miniatures" game which goes beyond the initial rules design was created for; and that's just for starters, there are MANY examples in which the sales team, the marketing team and the rules team crearly stepped over each other toes in the past years.
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