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Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 3, 2018 23:51:59 GMT
The Pyre is fine as is, and that Slag Troll would be fine if it had any remotely useful animus. You say that, but it basically only gets taken to set Fire Eaters on fire and as a Damage buff on Borka2.
I'd like to see it get Flare on the aoe.
Which is enough. We have a bunch of different lights and, except for the Slag, they all do utility more than fighting, to varying degrees. They are pretty specialized and we will not use any of them as often as the Earthborn, Bomber or Mauler, except for the Axer. Even 2 units of Fire Eaters can often get by without the Pyre if need be. Yeah, hardly anybody other than the Borkas and Madraks takes a Pyre Troll with any regularity, but that's fine. I think one of the bigger reasons why the Pyre takes so much flak really is because he has rules that are easy to forget but not exactly useless. I keep forgetting this myself, but things that hit him in melee are set on fire if he survives. That is actually very helpful when he's just starting a piece trade anyway. Nor is he completely useless in combat. Yes, his MAT and RAT are both poor, but he can fully boost and still score a pretty solid hit and set the target on fire from 15 inches away. Also, I almost never see him sent into melee, but really... why not? If you knock something down first he can just auto-hit, and he can get himself to POW 14 with no other help (15 with the SSE) and still set the target on fire. Even with only 3 Fury, he can animus, walk into melee, then boost to hit or damage on both initials. That's not amazing, but it's not worthless either. That will put 8 damage on a Juggernaut on average rolls. With Continuous Fire and a little luck, that could kill a fresh bone jack. Of course, both Borkas have ways to KD enemies, and that's just one more synergy there, but KD is a pretty common trick in-faction.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Dec 4, 2018 10:31:35 GMT
You say that, but it basically only gets taken to set Fire Eaters on fire and as a Damage buff on Borka2.
I'd like to see it get Flare on the aoe.
Which is enough. We have a bunch of different lights and, except for the Slag, they all do utility more than fighting, to varying degrees. They are pretty specialized and we will not use any of them as often as the Earthborn, Bomber or Mauler, except for the Axer. Even 2 units of Fire Eaters can often get by without the Pyre if need be. Yeah, hardly anybody other than the Borkas and Madraks takes a Pyre Troll with any regularity, but that's fine. I think one of the bigger reasons why the Pyre takes so much flak really is because he has rules that are easy to forget but not exactly useless. I keep forgetting this myself, but things that hit him in melee are set on fire if he survives. That is actually very helpful when he's just starting a piece trade anyway. Nor is he completely useless in combat. Yes, his MAT and RAT are both poor, but he can fully boost and still score a pretty solid hit and set the target on fire from 15 inches away. Also, I almost never see him sent into melee, but really... why not? If you knock something down first he can just auto-hit, and he can get himself to POW 14 with no other help (15 with the SSE) and still set the target on fire. Even with only 3 Fury, he can animus, walk into melee, then boost to hit or damage on both initials. That's not amazing, but it's not worthless either. That will put 8 damage on a Juggernaut on average rolls. With Continuous Fire and a little luck, that could kill a fresh bone jack. Of course, both Borkas have ways to KD enemies, and that's just one more synergy there, but KD is a pretty common trick in-faction. I probably play more Bashers than any of the heavies you mentioned there, but then again I'm pretty high on our Gargs and pretty meh on our heavies at the moment.
I send the Pyre into combat pretty regularly and it does ok but rat 5 pow 12's are really bad at that.
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Post by datboi on Dec 4, 2018 18:31:46 GMT
Which is enough. We have a bunch of different lights and, except for the Slag, they all do utility more than fighting, to varying degrees. They are pretty specialized and we will not use any of them as often as the Earthborn, Bomber or Mauler, except for the Axer. Even 2 units of Fire Eaters can often get by without the Pyre if need be. Yeah, hardly anybody other than the Borkas and Madraks takes a Pyre Troll with any regularity, but that's fine. My testing has shown that the two units of fire eaters realllllly don't want to be setting each other on fire. Dice off 6 (or 8 if you did the stone correctly) on each guy is a lot worse than the pow 6's from the pyre. Furthermore, I've found that you really tie your hands in terms of placement. With the pyre, your guys can be bunched at deployment then run to spread out turn 1. Without the pyre, they have to bunch up on turn one (could mean death!) and you have to be more careful with model placement
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Post by disgruntledwargamer on Dec 4, 2018 20:57:33 GMT
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Dec 5, 2018 0:21:49 GMT
Which is enough. We have a bunch of different lights and, except for the Slag, they all do utility more than fighting, to varying degrees. They are pretty specialized and we will not use any of them as often as the Earthborn, Bomber or Mauler, except for the Axer. Even 2 units of Fire Eaters can often get by without the Pyre if need be. Yeah, hardly anybody other than the Borkas and Madraks takes a Pyre Troll with any regularity, but that's fine. My testing has shown that the two units of fire eaters realllllly don't want to be setting each other on fire. Dice off 6 (or 8 if you did the stone correctly) on each guy is a lot worse than the pow 6's from the pyre. Furthermore, I've found that you really tie your hands in terms of placement. With the pyre, your guys can be bunched at deployment then run to spread out turn 1. Without the pyre, they have to bunch up on turn one (could mean death!) and you have to be more careful with model placement I agree with you. I'd rather just not run Fire eaters than do it without a Pyre troll. I don't believe you miss them that much as they are often shot off the table and are competing with so many other great choices for infantry in SotN. Basically every unit in SotN is great except for Kriel Warriors and so I like taking a bit of everything, which is the same reason I get shocked when people tell me double bears is auto include. Bears are excellent,but so are champions, Longriders, Raiders, Lookouts, Fire eaters.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Dec 5, 2018 17:27:17 GMT
Pyre with Flare on ranged attack would definitely have a distinct role in assisting Kriel Company, even if it turned into his 'target FF Warbeast' animus for 2 Fury, a la Axer's (generates choice of support aid to others' hitting OR stick with boosting the Pyre's damage roll(s)). Bomber with Flare animus for example would negate Farstrike, so choice is present. Flare as a 'self' animus would be too good on certain warlocks, probably. Slag could inherit the +2 damage (self) animus . Creating our 10pt spam-able 'heavy' (Slayer/Marauder/Crusader warjack) warbeast option, 'cause face it, our real heavies will continue to cost a premium.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
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Post by Arcaux on Dec 5, 2018 18:13:41 GMT
Pyre with Flare on ranged attack would definitely have a distinct role in assisting Kriel Company, even if it turned into his 'target FF Warbeast' animus for 2 Fury, a la Axer's (generates choice of support aid to others' hitting OR stick with boosting the Pyre's damage roll(s)). Bomber with Flare animus for example would negate Farstrike, so choice is present. Flare as a 'self' animus would be too good on certain warlocks, probably. Slag could inherit the +2 damage (self) animus . Creating our 10pt spam-able 'heavy' (Slayer/Marauder/Crusader warjack) warbeast option, 'cause face it, our real heavies will continue to cost a premium. Nope, no way im happy losing Borka2's access to the pyre animus just to get flare on Pyre troll. I think it should just be on the shot, afterall it's even a little tricky to use because the Pyre doesn't have a way to see through stealth himself, so would either need to get within 5 inches or hope the 3 inch aoe didn't scatter off the target. It's hardly game breaking. Obviously the +2 benefit is nice, but we've needed a ranged hit buff in faction for a long time and on a rat5 gun it is again not game breaking.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Dec 5, 2018 19:37:45 GMT
If the pyre gets flare on its gun, does that mean it'll put -2 DEF on the Fire Eaters it lights up?
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Dec 5, 2018 23:21:24 GMT
If the pyre gets flare on its gun, does that mean it'll put -2 DEF on the Fire Eaters it lights up? Yes, it would. Thus my solution of making Flare the Pyre's 'target FF warbeast' animus.
Arcaux: I'd note the Slag with an animus equivalent to the Pyre's animus ('cept auto-Corrosion instead of auto-Fire) might be a trade-up for Borka2, and I daresay a better Countercharger against hard targets (Constructs), and therefore a better 'control' piece.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Dec 6, 2018 10:35:21 GMT
If the pyre gets flare on its gun, does that mean it'll put -2 DEF on the Fire Eaters it lights up? Yes and No the -2 def and loss of stealth only lasts 1 turn, so they would be gone by your opponents turn, but would still matter for attacks made on your opponents turn such as Countercharge, Counterblast, Guardian Beast, Retaliatory Strike etc
I guess I'd just miss the synergy with Borka2 and Fire eaters. Right now I think the only place it's worth playing Fire Eaters is Borka2. If you make it so Borka2 takes a slag then I think they don't really have a place at all.
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Post by ludmar on Dec 6, 2018 10:42:03 GMT
Impaler no change!
Snipe change => back to MK2 snipe become rang 6
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