privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Nov 14, 2018 21:22:10 GMT
6 points would be good for that stat line.
I really like your Vindictus list, I think I would probably run it with the Harbinger and 2x Sanctifier instead of the Reckoner, but I'll probably experiment. One unit could just babysit her for Girded. She likes those smaller units and higher value pieces for Martyring and Awe makes the Initiates DEF 15 against living which makes them even harder to remove.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 14, 2018 22:33:41 GMT
Well that's slightly disappointing. Are they single wound models? That would be really disappointing. I can easily see the comparison to the Dervish and I really like that Unbreakable Wall works if they run or charge, unlike Shield Wall. It makes them sort of a mobile strike force. Maybe they'll be worth the points with Vilmon and the Champions, if those abilities affect them. If they have wounds, they seem tough to dislodge but easy to hold back. If Vilmon helps them, then that fixes that second issue. 5 wounds. My gut says they are 6pts good as is. I would still like them to get RV from Villmon.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 15, 2018 2:53:15 GMT
RV from vilmon would probably justify the cost. You're definitely putting the point cost for the support on the unit but you can do a paladin and jack list and be looking at an army that regularly hovers at arm like 23/24 vs shooting/magic and 21 in melee
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 15, 2018 13:07:40 GMT
RV from vilmon would probably justify the cost. You're definitely putting the point cost for the support on the unit but you can do a paladin and jack list and be looking at an army that regularly hovers at arm like 23/24 vs shooting/magic and 21 in melee I like the idea of running a full pally boat supported by heavies with Durst. You get the arm cracking and durability to make for a potentially mean list. Having said that only he regularly makes them all arm 23 from shooting and we have to keep in mind other casters may want to use them hmmmm [Durst 1] Anson Durst, Rock of the Faith [+28] - Sanctifier [14] - Sanctifier [14] - Templar [15] - Templar [15] - Hierophant [0(3)] Champion of the Order of the Wall [8] Champion of the Order of the Wall [8] High Paladin Dartan Vilmon [0(6)] Paladin of the Order of the Wall [4] Vassal of Menoth [3] Wrack [1] Wrack [1] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Initiates of the Wall [8] Initiates of the Wall [8] If they drop to 6 points I can add in a second Pally solo which would round out the list a bit...I may try to test this instead of Cyrenia.
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Post by paradox on Nov 15, 2018 14:30:53 GMT
The more I look at them, Cyrenia dies start to have a certain appeal. Not sure Id go all-in on 3 units and full boat, but Rock Wall + theme wall provides lots of extra protection. The feat doubles down on that, and Positive Charge is useful if they hit. Theyre hitting like an unbuffed champ then. Plus Dash helps too. I have a Durst paladin list I was fiddling with that I might try adapting. It should be good into non-Blessed gunlines with stances/formations plus Decel, and the initiate units kinda solve bricking issues. I also think Kreoss3 has some options. Hes pretty toolboxy, and can give assorted buffs as game state requires. Sevy1 is a turd polisher, and you cant take Sev0 in FM, do worth consideration. Im sure lots of people stat with Harbie though.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 15, 2018 17:33:06 GMT
paradox I was thinking of subbing them in to replace the second unit of Idrians in my Cyrenia list. Just for testing. The more I brainstorm lists with the the more they grow on me. Not an auto take, but they have a purpose. I
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Post by paradox on Nov 15, 2018 18:49:12 GMT
paradox I was thinking of subbing them in to replace the second unit of Idrians in my Cyrenia list. Just for testing. The more I brainstorm lists with the the more they grow on me. Not an auto take, but they have a purpose. I If they were a little cheaper, I might like 1 unit as a zone holder/scorer.
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Post by mydnight on Nov 15, 2018 22:38:39 GMT
I think the question remains as to what do they do that you could not do better with a combination of some other unit/solo? They can definitely fit into lists -- we have very good casters and FM has some flexibility, but it's still not clear what exactly the game plan is for them.
If PP really wants to double down on them being roadblocks you know what would be hilarious on them? -- Sanguine Bond.
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Post by greytemplar on Nov 17, 2018 1:32:58 GMT
First thoughts on the Initiates. They seem fairly legit. 8 points might be 1-2 points too high, but I like their rules as is. Arm21, 5 boxes, def13(15) seems like an ok roadblock. The only downside is they are permanently stuck in a triangle of doom, which limits their roadblock potential as they're going to be tripping over each other.
The only way I could justify 8 points is if they gained the above AND could benefit from Vilmon's elite cadre.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 17, 2018 21:45:11 GMT
After playing 2 units of them with Cyrenia I was happy with thier defensive stats but unhappy with how they brick and maneuver and the abysmal attack volume for cost.
Champs get 3 attacks at similar pow and higher Mat, are overall the same durability, but significantly more mobile and disruptive. Initiated just feel like a worse version of what a champ does for the army.
If they gained RV from Villmon, and dropped to 6 points for the unit I could see them getting taken. As it stands I’m struggling to Justify them over Idrians since they don’t fulfill a niche that isn’t already fulfilled by pally solos. If they had a higher attack volume or were just dirt cheap I think they fulfill a role.
Pow 15 and Mat 9 when supported by positive charge made them impressive with the few attacks they had. I don’t like the idea of them being mediocre in combat. We already have Zealots for that, and Idrians are all offense. Having the pally unit be Durable and Solid offense gives them a niche for a versatile all rounder unit that is harder to remove than Idrians.
Durability seemed fine if they get a cost reduction. Sadly in the current meta 13/21 with5 Boxes is just not what it should be. All it takes is one lucky charge attack and the unit becomes pretty weak.
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Post by greytemplar on Nov 17, 2018 22:05:45 GMT
Tough might not be out of place either.
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Post by jisidro on Nov 18, 2018 8:23:10 GMT
You can't have 14" threat units just like that... They are great stat sticks and I've said it's a pity they have no Paladin interaction but area vengeance is not the way to go IMO.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 18, 2018 13:43:46 GMT
You can't have 14" threat units just like that... They are great stat sticks and I've said it's a pity they have no Paladin interaction but area vengeance is not the way to go IMO. I’m sorry how many inches do ravagers Threat? Oh yeah...14” with higher attack volume and pow as well as similar durability, and better maneuverability. Oh and for 2 points less. (Villmon and 2 Units are 22pts) They are not great stat sticks for thier cost (8 for 3 is just too expensive considering once one dies they are really easy to remove by traditional attacks in the current meta) and not interacting with Villmon is bad design. I fail to see what’s so bad about them having RV...
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Post by jisidro on Nov 19, 2018 12:22:09 GMT
You can't have 14" threat units just like that... They are great stat sticks and I've said it's a pity they have no Paladin interaction but area vengeance is not the way to go IMO. I’m sorry how many inches do ravagers Threat? Oh yeah...14” with higher attack volume and pow as well as similar durability, and better maneuverability. Oh and for 2 points less. (Villmon and 2 Units are 22pts) They are not great stat sticks for thier cost (8 for 3 is just too expensive considering once one dies they are really easy to remove by traditional attacks in the current meta) and not interacting with Villmon is bad design. I fail to see what’s so bad about them having RV...
I agree they should be cheaper... Also they gain "vengeance" when other stuff fies not themselves, it not granted it's an elite cadre...
To make my thoughts perfectly clear:
- I think they are too expensive for the possibility of not dying to 1 high pow attack although they are really good at that. It takes a 10+ to kill them with a POW 16 (or about a 50%/50% on a boosted roll) after getting hit.
- I think they should have some synergy with paladins since they are initiates of paladins - I don't think increasing threat is the only way to make a DEFENSIVE unit more interesting.
- I think they already hit well. Once again defensive focus not offensive focus.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 19, 2018 13:14:58 GMT
I think my issue is less with threat range and more with attack volume. Although at 6 points I think I can forgive that
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