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Post by fedeii on Nov 10, 2018 19:32:02 GMT
pseudo focus can't shake effects, can't trample and shoot, can't see through stealth, only armor 18 if TKed around backwards, 3d3 eats clock every turn, can't put warjack/battlegroup only buffs on it, not effected by battlegroup only feats/upkeeps.
not trying to say your points aren't valid but there's a reason it's only 16 points.
The reason being they want to sell a lot of them?
C'mon...14/20 30 hitpoints? two of them cost like an Hyperion and are more durable.
As for the other point:
- it's a huge base so some effect can be avoided anyway;
- it has dual attack, so, while it can't trample, as you say, it can still charge and shoot. And we have access to a lot of charge extenders! Also, it has a random very poweful melee attack (i just noticed its range was reduced to 1, but still) that can even slam non-huge models; - play it with Issy for anti-stealth, it's a great caster for running them anyway;
- fair point about telekinesis, but it's not that common a spell, and you can still stay pretty far (reposition, maybe sniper?); - ok no battlegroup buff/feats/upkeep;
I think you are undervaluing the price/effectiveness of the package. I played a fair number of Issyria double trident in LoD and I've very rarely lost them. I'm not saying you cannot counter it of course, but it's a meta-bending piece, at least as much as Vyros2 griffon spam was.
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matsif
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 54
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Post by matsif on Nov 10, 2018 20:51:39 GMT
C'mon...14/20 30 hitpoints? two of them cost like an Hyperion and are more durable. As for the other point:
- it's a huge base so some effect can be avoided anyway;
- it has dual attack, so, while it can't trample, as you say, it can still charge and shoot. And we have access to a lot of charge extenders! Also, it has a random very poweful melee attack (i just noticed its range was reduced to 1, but still) that can even slam non-huge models; - play it with Issy for anti-stealth, it's a great caster for running them anyway;
- fair point about telekinesis, but it's not that common a spell, and you can still stay pretty far (reposition, maybe sniper?); - ok no battlegroup buff/feats/upkeep; I think you are undervaluing the price/effectiveness of the package. I played a fair number of Issyria double trident in LoD and I've very rarely lost them. I'm not saying you cannot counter it of course, but it's a meta-bending piece, at least as much as Vyros2 griffon spam was.
not saying the model is bad by any stretch of the imagination, but let's pump the breaks on the "meta breaking model" stuff. 14/20 30 HP is nice, it's a lot of potential shots a turn, it has some utility. yes, it's not a bad model. the hooch hauler was not a bad model, I don't remember it completely breaking the meta for trolls to the point where you wanted 2 of them every game. I don't remember every protectorate player who finally had their prayers to the lawbringer answered in getting the revelator putting it in every game either. let's not ignore the drawbacks: -it's a clock hog since you have to roll 4d3 just about every time you activate the thing, 3d3 shots is inconsistent, and dice being dice means it's just as likely to give you a 3 shot ossyan feat turn as it is to give you a 9 shot turn. -getting d3 power tokens a turn is nice, but if you're making a lot of use of slipstream and focus barrier that's 1 boosted attack or damage roll a turn on a model that can't benefit from, say, ossyan's field marshal future sight. -it's fast and has reposition, but coordinated movement and slipstream require certain distances to exist, and since it's faster than most of our already fast faction you're never going to truly be able to leverage that speed and still leverage slipstream and coordinated movement. -is slipstream really that amazing? how often have you seen skarre3 in the past year? how about seraphs in any legion that isn't oracles? 2" of placement on an already fast faction is not that special all things considered. it's a good model, but it's a clock hog and not 100% reliable and has some synergy issues due to how fast it is vs its utility abilities. so it's a big base model that looks cool and has drawbacks. it'll have its time in the spotlight just like everything else that's new, but I really don't see it breaking the meta any more than any of our other CID changes.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Nov 10, 2018 20:55:49 GMT
pseudo focus can't shake effects, can't trample and shoot, can't see through stealth, only armor 18 if TKed around backwards, 3d3 eats clock every turn, can't put warjack/battlegroup only buffs on it, not effected by battlegroup only feats/upkeeps.
not trying to say your points aren't valid but there's a reason it's only 16 points.
The reason being they want to sell a lot of them?
C'mon...14/20 30 hitpoints? two of them cost like an Hyperion and are more durable.
As for the other point:
- it's a huge base so some effect can be avoided anyway;
- it has dual attack, so, while it can't trample, as you say, it can still charge and shoot. And we have access to a lot of charge extenders! Also, it has a random very poweful melee attack (i just noticed its range was reduced to 1, but still) that can even slam non-huge models; - play it with Issy for anti-stealth, it's a great caster for running them anyway;
- fair point about telekinesis, but it's not that common a spell, and you can still stay pretty far (reposition, maybe sniper?); - ok no battlegroup buff/feats/upkeep;
I think you are undervaluing the price/effectiveness of the package. I played a fair number of Issyria double trident in LoD and I've very rarely lost them. I'm not saying you cannot counter it of course, but it's a meta-bending piece, at least as much as Vyros2 griffon spam was.
Its not 14/20, its 12/18 with a shield. A lot of things can ignore a shield, chain weapons are a thing. Also there are pieces that get an additional die against huge bases. I never said it was a bad piece. Its point cost is justified though. Really for me the only rule that matters is the slipstream, the rest is utility.
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Post by fedeii on Nov 10, 2018 22:28:07 GMT
[Nov 10, 2018 21:51:39 GMT 1 matsif said: let's not ignore the drawbacks: -it's a clock hog since you have to roll 4d3 just about every time you activate the thing, 3d3 shots is inconsistent, and dice being dice means it's just as likely to give you a 3 shot ossyan feat turn as it is to give you a 9 shot turn. -getting d3 power tokens a turn is nice, but if you're making a lot of use of slipstream and focus barrier that's 1 boosted attack or damage roll a turn on a model that can't benefit from, say, ossyan's field marshal future sight. -it's fast and has reposition, but coordinated movement and slipstream require certain distances to exist, and since it's faster than most of our already fast faction you're never going to truly be able to leverage that speed and still leverage slipstream and coordinated movement. -is slipstream really that amazing? how often have you seen skarre3 in the past year? how about seraphs in any legion that isn't oracles? 2" of placement on an already fast faction is not that special all things considered.]
Well ok, I still think it's a very undercosted model, but I'm perfectly happy if, as you say, it won't be considered a "meta-breaking" piece. - the "clock hog" thing is just a matter of getting used to it, a very minor drawback; - resources are always limited...a great thing I appreciated, which is a plus to counter the cons you point out, is that power tokens, besides not costing any resource to the caster, are not lost each turn, kind of like focus battery, and the Trident cannot be disrupted or made stationary; - are you literally complaining that this thing it's too fast to make use of all of its abilities?! It's a great problem to have! Also, I don't see the correlation between speed and using slipstream, to be honest....usually I placed the Trident near a jack and used slipstream before moving; - I do want to point out that slipstream isn't amazing per se, but, on an already very useful model which doesn't spend any action to make use of it and is super durable, I think it is.
[Its not 14/20, its 12/18 with a shield. A lot of things can ignore a shield, chain weapons are a thing. Also there are pieces that get an additional die against huge bases. I never said it was a bad piece. Its point cost is justified though. Really for me the only rule that matters is the slipstream, the rest is utility. ]
You're correct of course, but: - while 14 def isn't native, it costs very little resources to get it. - are chain weapons really that common? and the Trident should not be so easy to charge...this thing has reposition and you can even use admonition on it (an out-of-activation 7" move is great)! - pieces which get an additional die against huge bases are fairly rare and usually are single shots, so maybe use shield guard?...more common probably are the burst fire or similar weapons, but these have the same effects against large bases, and we still play jacks right?
I think this piece is the sum of a lot little different ability, which makes it a super flexible piece and gets more work done than its point cost would suggest. Like charging (with flight and without spending focus for the charge) 13" under any +2" extender, then making a melee boosted pow 16 attack, then shooting the slammed target and hitting more or less automatically with an average of 6 ranged attacks, of which 3 boosted. Against any standard 10/19 jack, that's 7/8 (charge attack) + 4/5 (boosted ranged) + 4/5 + 4/5 + 3 (non boosted attacks) damages --> 22/26 damages. Without any damage buff, of course. Under Issy's feat, that's 1.5 dmg per attack more, right? so 10.5 more. There you have it, 32.5/38.5 dmg. Still, no point arguing, I'm just happy for our new shiny toy.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Nov 11, 2018 0:27:43 GMT
Remember when i said this model cant have battlegroup upkeeps, and how that justifies its point cost. Admonition is one of those upkeeps.
A mangler under magnus2 +calamity one rounds this thing easily.
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Post by elladan52 on Nov 11, 2018 2:10:30 GMT
Remember when i said this model cant have battlegroup upkeeps, and how that justifies its point cost. Admonition is one of those upkeeps. A mangler under magnus2 +calamity one rounds this thing easily. He definitely means refuge.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 11, 2018 5:44:42 GMT
Remember when i said this model cant have battlegroup upkeeps, and how that justifies its point cost. Admonition is one of those upkeeps. A mangler under magnus2 +calamity one rounds this thing easily. Similarly costed item one rounds other similarly costed item with warcaster support, news at 11. Question though, You counting on that mangler getting the charge? Cause the trident's faster and ignores terrain. Also, to land calamity magnus is probably going to have to burn 4 focus, so you're either leaving him empty to load the mangler, or your mangler isn't one rounding it.
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Post by fedeii on Nov 11, 2018 10:35:32 GMT
Remember when i said this model cant have battlegroup upkeeps, and how that justifies its point cost. Admonition is one of those upkeeps. A mangler under magnus2 +calamity one rounds this thing easily. You're right about admonition, but you literally used as a "common" example of one-rounding the Trident one of the 2/3 jacks in all the game with chain weapon on the strong attack. It's a very rare thing. Also, the mangler can charge for free.
But, even in your example, in order to one-round this "not bad" thing, you need: (i) a jack with a rare weapon ability, (ii) a spell dmg buff, (iii) an uncommon ability on the jack (free charge), and, likely, a (iv) charge extender (like escort on Magnus2). I'll add an optional fifth requirement, the Trident within 12" of the Mangler. Ah, and an arc node (Renegade?) to channel calamity, within 10" of the Trident and its friends.
Therefore yes, the Mangler can, when VERY helped by its user and its kind opponent (and if you don't miss more than one attack, it's still 6 to hit, right?), one-round the Trident. Be careful when you see him! But even then, you'll only lose 16 points and I assume the mangler will be killed by sentinels or whatever. No big deal, one point of difference, and the Trident will likely -and hopely- have already dealt some damage to the enemy, so maybe you'll trade favourably.
But an average unaided jack? Like...a Crusader? If it can even charge (spd 4!), then it's pow 20 (one cannot refuse the choir's aid) vs arm 20. It deals 10+8+8. It doesn't one-round it, not even close. And it may even miss it, as it still need 6 to hit.
Yes, let's pretend I'm smart and I did definitely mean Kealyssa's refuge.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Nov 11, 2018 13:30:44 GMT
Remember when i said this model cant have battlegroup upkeeps, and how that justifies its point cost. Admonition is one of those upkeeps. A mangler under magnus2 +calamity one rounds this thing easily. You're right about admonition, but you literally used as a "common" example of one-rounding the Trident one of the 2/3 jacks in all the game with chain weapon on the strong attack. It's a very rare thing. Also, the mangler can charge for free.
But, even in your example, in order to one-round this "not bad" thing, you need: (i) a jack with a rare weapon ability, (ii) a spell dmg buff, (iii) an uncommon ability on the jack (free charge), and, likely, a (iv) charge extender (like escort on Magnus2). I'll add an optional fifth requirement, the Trident within 12" of the Mangler. Ah, and an arc node (Renegade?) to channel calamity, within 10" of the Trident and its friends.
Therefore yes, the Mangler can, when VERY helped by its user and its kind opponent (and if you don't miss more than one attack, it's still 6 to hit, right?), one-round the Trident. Be careful when you see him! But even then, you'll only lose 16 points and I assume the mangler will be killed by sentinels or whatever. No big deal, one point of difference, and the Trident will likely -and hopely- have already dealt some damage to the enemy, so maybe you'll trade favourably.
But an average unaided jack? Like...a Crusader? If it can even charge (spd 4!), then it's pow 20 (one cannot refuse the choir's aid) vs arm 20. It deals 10+8+8. It doesn't one-round it, not even close. And it may even miss it, as it still need 6 to hit.
Yes, let's pretend I'm smart and I did definitely mean Kealyssa's refuge.
Magnus2 is a very common caster, armor/def debuffs are very common in this game, chain weapon is more common than you think.
If we're diving into the hypothetical at your ridiculous level instead of just a basic statement lets not forget that Magnus2 doesn't give a shit how close his jack is to the Trident's friends because hes going to feat and they won't be able to retaliate.
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Post by fedeii on Nov 11, 2018 16:56:55 GMT
Magnus2 is a very common caster, armor/def debuffs are very common in this game, chain weapon is more common than you think.
If we're diving into the hypothetical at your ridiculous level instead of just a basic statement lets not forget that Magnus2 doesn't give a shit how close his jack is to the Trident's friends because hes going to feat and they won't be able to retaliate.
The basic statement, and whole point of the discussion, is clearly not that the Trident is invincible, but that it's an exceptional model in term of cost and toughness. After all, no retri warjack would resist the attacks we are talking about as well as it.
If we are really counting buffs and feats....there are dozens of models, in nearly all factions, who could one-round any other model in the game.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 11, 2018 20:44:42 GMT
You're right about admonition, but you literally used as a "common" example of one-rounding the Trident one of the 2/3 jacks in all the game with chain weapon on the strong attack. It's a very rare thing. Also, the mangler can charge for free.
But, even in your example, in order to one-round this "not bad" thing, you need: (i) a jack with a rare weapon ability, (ii) a spell dmg buff, (iii) an uncommon ability on the jack (free charge), and, likely, a (iv) charge extender (like escort on Magnus2). I'll add an optional fifth requirement, the Trident within 12" of the Mangler. Ah, and an arc node (Renegade?) to channel calamity, within 10" of the Trident and its friends.
Therefore yes, the Mangler can, when VERY helped by its user and its kind opponent (and if you don't miss more than one attack, it's still 6 to hit, right?), one-round the Trident. Be careful when you see him! But even then, you'll only lose 16 points and I assume the mangler will be killed by sentinels or whatever. No big deal, one point of difference, and the Trident will likely -and hopely- have already dealt some damage to the enemy, so maybe you'll trade favourably.
But an average unaided jack? Like...a Crusader? If it can even charge (spd 4!), then it's pow 20 (one cannot refuse the choir's aid) vs arm 20. It deals 10+8+8. It doesn't one-round it, not even close. And it may even miss it, as it still need 6 to hit.
Yes, let's pretend I'm smart and I did definitely mean Kealyssa's refuge.
Magnus2 is a very common caster, armor/def debuffs are very common in this game, chain weapon is more common than you think.
If we're diving into the hypothetical at your ridiculous level instead of just a basic statement lets not forget that Magnus2 doesn't give a shit how close his jack is to the Trident's friends because hes going to feat and they won't be able to retaliate.
Assuming they don't shoot his fragile merc jack to death you mean. But this magnus as very common thing. In the last 6 months or so, Thexus and Gorten are about as common a second list as Magnus as far as high placing merc lists go, and you have to go back 4 or 5 months to start seeing magnus reliably placing. Ossrum is the common factor, and id bet money sees more table time.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Nov 12, 2018 3:21:21 GMT
Magnus2 is a very common caster, armor/def debuffs are very common in this game, chain weapon is more common than you think.
If we're diving into the hypothetical at your ridiculous level instead of just a basic statement lets not forget that Magnus2 doesn't give a shit how close his jack is to the Trident's friends because hes going to feat and they won't be able to retaliate.
Assuming they don't shoot his fragile merc jack to death you mean. But this magnus as very common thing. In the last 6 months or so, Thexus and Gorten are about as common a second list as Magnus as far as high placing merc lists go, and you have to go back 4 or 5 months to start seeing magnus reliably placing. Ossrum is the common factor, and id bet money sees more table time. Sorry I'm out of the loop on the meta. I've got a newborn so I haven't gotten games in for the last 2 months... I probably won't get in any games until January/Febuary
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Post by Dirhavel on Nov 13, 2018 6:23:45 GMT
Just thought I'd point out that there was a change in wording between the end of CID and the card database rules:
CID : Telekinetic Wave - When this model ends its Normal Movement, it can spend one power token to use Telekinetic Wave. When it does so, choose one non-huge-based friendly Faction model it moved within 2˝ of. You can place the chosen model completely within 2˝ of its current location. A model can be placed as a result of Telekinetic Wave only once per turn.
Card Database : Telekinetic Wave - When this model ends its Normal Movement, it can spend one power token to use Telekinetic Wave. When it does so, choose one non-huge-based friendly Faction model within 2" of it. You can place the chosen model completely within 2" of its current location. A model can be placed as a result of Telekinetic Wave only once per turn.
The new version is a lot more restrictive on the placement effect, and it will be a bit trickier to use Telekinetic Wave and get optimal use of your shooting on the same turn. To me at least this means TW will become fairly cornercase and I probably won't count on it too much when list building.
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matsif
BattleBox Champ
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Post by matsif on Nov 13, 2018 15:20:34 GMT
The new version is a lot more restrictive on the placement effect, and it will be a bit trickier to use Telekinetic Wave and get optimal use of your shooting on the same turn. To me at least this means TW will become fairly cornercase and I probably won't count on it too much when list building. tbh I always interpreted that final CID writing as the final writing in the card database, but you are right in saying it is more restrictive. has slipstream ever been anything other than a corner case utility thing though? it's not like seraphs have dominated every legion list as far as beasts go (I've never seen one outside of oracles, although admittedly none of the legion players I've faced were big into hyper-competitive things), and while she's new skarre3 didn't exactly completely sweep in and take over the cryx meta despite having access to shipstream. the main draw to the trident for me was a colossal base with coordinated movement that fit into more themes than DoI. that's a lot of LOS blocking and screening available to ret's generally squishy models that can then still see and move through it when required. TW was never more than just a situational bonus utility thing stuck on an otherwise fairly durable, fast, but inconsistent in offensive output model.
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Post by elladan52 on Nov 13, 2018 16:53:09 GMT
I think it will be easier to use than you say. The 120mm base makes it much easier for it to be near a model at the end of it's movement, though it does mean that a model hiding directly behind it will use it less.
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