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Post by chickenslayer on Nov 6, 2018 2:14:33 GMT
I'm sorry I couldn't make it to Warmachine Weekend this year to continue to perpetuate the lie that Khador is viable in the competitive meta
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Post by michael on Nov 6, 2018 2:16:53 GMT
The meta is a lie.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Nov 6, 2018 2:54:41 GMT
I'm sorry I couldn't make it to Warmachine Weekend this year to continue to perpetuate the lie that Khador is viable in the competitive meta As long as you make it to GenCon next year to play a game and swap stories over that beer at the Ram I promised you, all is forgiven. Otherwise you’re a good-for-nothing traitor who can’t be bothered to fly across a the ocean to do your faction proud. Feh.
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Post by chickenslayer on Nov 6, 2018 3:06:40 GMT
I'm sorry I couldn't make it to Warmachine Weekend this year to continue to perpetuate the lie that Khador is viable in the competitive meta As long as you make it to GenCon next year to play a game and swap stories over that beer at the Ram I promised you, all is forgiven. Otherwise you’re a good-for-nothing traitor who can’t be bothered to fly across a the ocean to do your faction proud. Feh. Sounds good. Either Gencon, LnL or whatever replaces Warmachine Weekend is on the cards for next year
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Nov 6, 2018 4:00:10 GMT
Not to poke a bear, but can't the Cygnar players say much the same? Only two players at the Invitational and they come in at 29th and dead last. I've seen times when Trolls had similar bad showings, even after Storm of the North. Now, a trend is a different thing from one data point. Hell, look at all the Cryx players, and not one in the top 10. I'm honestly very surprised to see so many Crucible Guard armies all over the Champions tourney and the Scrambles but zero in the Invitational.
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Post by Cryptix on Nov 6, 2018 4:44:20 GMT
To small a sample sice. Also: NA has a not many Khador players or at least not a large number of better ones. NA is where the narrative of "Khador is bad" comes from. Well, it's not coming from the West Coast (SoCal specifically) I can tell you that You can't swing a bottle of Vodka without hitting Khadoran around here You're in SoCal? Anywhere near simi valley?
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Nov 6, 2018 6:01:46 GMT
Well, it's not coming from the West Coast (SoCal specifically) I can tell you that You can't swing a bottle of Vodka without hitting Khadoran around here You're in SoCal? Anywhere near simi valley? Nah, I'm in TJ in Mexico. I drive you to San Diego and LA for tourneys though
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Post by Netherby on Nov 6, 2018 7:15:27 GMT
I think the only conclusion you can really draw from the faction distribution is that a bunch of people have swapped to Cryx from some other faction.
Some defections to Mercs and of course Grymkin as well. But mostly to Cryx...
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Nov 6, 2018 7:17:29 GMT
I think the only conclusion you can really draw from the faction distribution is that a bunch of people have swapped to Cryx from some other faction. Some defections to Mercs and of course Grymkin as well. But mostly to Cryx... Hehe, but what about if I swapped from Cryx to Khador?
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 6, 2018 8:10:05 GMT
I'm going to say something odd.
I don't care about WMW and I think looking at the results are pointless.
Now here's why!
I'm never going to play these guys on a regular basis. I'm a regular schmuck from South Wales. The most important event for me is the Welsh Masters, of which maybe 2 of these guys will go too (the two English fellas). And my local events, my 10 to 20 man SRs are my big events.
Now, we can look at these guys with wonder and amazement, but I'm never going to be on the same level. The guy who won with Iona played over 100 games with her. Dunbot played 150 dreamer games before she was ever released. I get maybe 1-2 games in a week.
So don't worry about the big pond, worry about the small ones you live in.
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Post by skathrex on Nov 6, 2018 10:08:26 GMT
To small a sample sice. Also: NA has a not many Khador players or at least not a large number of better ones. NA is where the narrative of "Khador is bad" comes from. Honestly, I feel like playing Khador and engaging with the community is kind of miserable these days because of two competing narratives. First is the “Dominate for Two” narrative that Khador is bad and that if you want to be serious about the game, you need to switch to a better faction. Second is the narrative that Khador is really powerful but all Khador players just suck. Not saying I’m going to make the WTC anytime soon, but it gets frustrating that when I do do well, the narrative is that it is because my warjacks are too good not because I did something to outplay my opponent. Maybe I’m thinking of the Warmachine community as too much of a hive mind, but it feels like Khador is a Schrodinger’s faction... somehow both a faction for noobs that serious players stay away from because it sucks, but also it’s so OP that if you do manage to win a game with Khador, it’s not a fair representation of your skill because a blind monkey can win with Khador. My response to all this is to tongue in cheek say “Khador OP, plz nerf” to literally every tournament result, whether Khador has a 60% win rate, 40% win rate, or isn’t played at all. I fully understand where your comming from and especially after it was known that the top players switched it was a hard on the Khador Mindset. Faction identy is largely driven by individuals that perform very well. JVM was a reason for many that legion wasn't bad when in truth it really was nothing to worry about. Additionally a lot of "media exposure" about Warmachine comes from NA/CAN. Looking at Australia or England you have a vastly different picture about the state of Khador. As to the example you are describing. I think you forgot that one of the things mentioned is a 3rd narrative: "Khador is OP". The DfT narrative comes from Khador players who aren't happy with their faction because they don't have the success they want to have with it. Khador is OP comes from players loosing to Khador. Khador is powerful but Khador players suck is a narrative that i would reword into Khador is fine but hard to master which encapsulates all 3 statements. 1. Khador is easy to play on the beginner lvls. You don't have to watch out for much and you are not prone to stumbeling over your own feet. High Base stats help here a lot. So from this point stems the narrative Khador is OP and im most players who really mean that come from this area of play. If you and your friends (opponent, mortal enemies, etc.) are just meeting in the middle of the table for a brawl Khador is very good at that. Also some Khador Casters like Vlad1 really excell here. Its only later when first your opponent has figured out how to deal with that gunline that you also have to learn to deal with their tricks which brings us too 2.In the mid lvl of skill Khador starts to struggle. As mentioned your opponent figured out how to beat your vlad1 Rocketspam and Harkevich Arm bricks or you face other highly teched build that find our weaknesses (like Gremlin Swarms or Skarre1). This is where the Khador is bad narrative come from. Frustrated Players who hit a wall and are searching for an easier answer imo. Maybe they just figured out Khador isn't really their playstile, who knows. But they are not willing to go to the next lvl with Khador which is: 3. Khador is hard to master. Again just my opinion. Why is it hard to master? Because while we don't have many tricks we have to know the opponents. That means you can't just teleport stuff over houses or move threw it but you have to be aware that your opponent can. This also means using the small tricks in the standard rules that many players are not so aware of since they are occupied with their own, for example Kodiaks throws stuff into your army or on something else at which point it gets move into your chargelanes via rules of least disturbance etc. Also Khador thrives on basic strategy imo. Deployment, counter-deployment, use of terrain, trying to anticipate where an opponent goes, and what he is most likely to do next round. This is where the last narrative comes from. Its less that Khador players suck but that most are satisified with their 3-3 or 4-2 performance at tournaments. Does anyone (the meta at large?) actually seriously think (other than a handful of Circle players on the CID forums) that Khador is somehow OP? Like, really? The feedback from real honest to goodness players that I play against in my LGS think our Armored Korp (arguably our most powerful theme) is "in a good spot", and that CID "did what it was supposed to do" (a subject of a longer thread in the General Forum). I have a few locals who find certain Khador Stuff OP, but that was shortly after AC was out and they played Legion and Mercs which S3 has a very good game into. Largely calling stuff OP has more to do with your own boogieman, which often has more to do with a Player than a Faction. Grymkin was largely irrelevant in Germany because non of the top lvl players played them. Meanwhile Skorne was a Nightmare while NA/CAN still talked about Skorne beeing trash. I'm going to say something odd. I don't care about WMW and I think looking at the results are pointless. Now here's why! I'm never going to play these guys on a regular basis. I'm a regular schmuck from South Wales. The most important event for me is the Welsh Masters, of which maybe 2 of these guys will go too (the two English fellas). And my local events, my 10 to 20 man SRs are my big events. Now, we can look at these guys with wonder and amazement, but I'm never going to be on the same level. The guy who won with Iona played over 100 games with her. Dunbot played 150 dreamer games before she was ever released. I get maybe 1-2 games in a week. So don't worry about the big pond, worry about the small ones you live in. Interesting and somewhat true sentiment. Even though I hope the WTC is important for you too^^
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 6, 2018 11:07:13 GMT
WTC? You mean that yearly city break alcohol binge.
Yeah it's up there I guess.
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Post by Netherby on Nov 7, 2018 8:02:45 GMT
I'm going to say something odd. I don't care about WMW and I think looking at the results are pointless. Now here's why! I'm never going to play these guys on a regular basis. I'm a regular schmuck from South Wales. The most important event for me is the Welsh Masters, of which maybe 2 of these guys will go too (the two English fellas). And my local events, my 10 to 20 man SRs are my big events. Now, we can look at these guys with wonder and amazement, but I'm never going to be on the same level. The guy who won with Iona played over 100 games with her. Dunbot played 150 dreamer games before she was ever released. I get maybe 1-2 games in a week. So don't worry about the big pond, worry about the small ones you live in. I get what you're saying. But WH/H is a pretty small pond to begin with. Sure, you may not have the time or desire to practice as much as some of those people. But that's the same as the majority of the 'big' pond. There really aren't that many people who play a million practice games a week. So it's not actually unrealistic for you to play in the same league as these people with your 1-2 games a week...
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Post by Havock on Nov 9, 2018 23:32:21 GMT
I'm honestly very surprised to see so many Crucible Guard armies all over the Champions tourney and the Scrambles but zero in the Invitational. Too new a faction, people are still figuring out their toys and matchups. And while "well-tweaked", the faction doesn't break the game as much as Grymkin did/does.
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Post by Netherby on Nov 10, 2018 13:51:06 GMT
I'm honestly very surprised to see so many Crucible Guard armies all over the Champions tourney and the Scrambles but zero in the Invitational. Too new a faction, people are still figuring out their toys and matchups. And while "well-tweaked", the faction doesn't break the game as much as Grymkin did/does. Huh? Grymkin breaks the game? They really aren't that good... They have a mechanic (Arcana) that is initially easier for the Grymkin player to master than the opponent. Which is true of pretty much every trick, since the player of the faction will get more practice with it than anyone else. Now if you plan and carry out the majority of your turn without considering the Arcana, it's quite possible your entire turn gets ruined at the crucial point. So it's pretty strong in that regard. But all of the Arcana are triggered by the opponent. So it's entirely up to you what Arcana you give them the opportunity to trigger and in what order. Which is a massive weakness in the system that you can exploit. CG is going to be similar. Granted they don't introduce a new mechanic, but they have a very high volume of rules per model. The CG player is going to understand the interactions much better than you will, which will lead to 'gotcha' situations. At first glance you may think: 'oh they just have these 3 or 4 attack types available on all these models'. But actually, while they have a lot of thematically similar abilities, they are actually functionally different in subtle ways. The same abilities aren't actually repeated all that much.
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