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Post by paingiverguy on Apr 16, 2017 2:36:37 GMT
Hello everyone,
It's time for my weekly annoying newb question.
Sentry or Gladiator?
I see that both models are strong, but I keep fielding the Gladiator because of Rush. Yes, the Sentry is steady and cannot be pushed but is that worth losing Rush? Ornery is kinda meh. Is there any reason to field a Sentry? I would just field more Glads, right?
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690 
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Post by zich on Apr 16, 2017 6:56:22 GMT
If you want to put something up front that your opponent will have trouble taking out in one round, the Sentry is your go-to heavy. If you add in an Armor buff from your caster and the Agonizer/Krea aura it is an effective ARM25 which is not trivial to take out. Certain factions struggle a lot against that.
To me that Gladiator is neraly mandatory, or entirely mandatory in a beast-heavy context. Meanwhile the Sentry is more situational. Both are good.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Apr 16, 2017 11:36:57 GMT
Both? I would not bring a sentry without rush
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Post by scorp on Apr 16, 2017 23:14:06 GMT
With Grand Slam and Rush I would take Gladiator over Sentry... If I couldn't have both. Most of our beast are too slow and need that extra movement and Pathfinder.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 17, 2017 5:33:14 GMT
If you can only choose 1, I can hardly imagine a scenario where you don't need Rush. The real question is if you need a 2nd Gladiator or a Sentry.  |
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Post by sentinel on Apr 17, 2017 8:39:22 GMT
Gladiator is the first beats you put in most lists. While sentry is more like a workhorse. You want 1 gladiator and multiple sentries in beast heavy casters.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 17, 2017 8:45:32 GMT
Gladiator is the first beats you put in most lists. While sentry is more like a workhorse. You want 1 gladiator and multiple sentries in beast heavy casters. This I am curious about. Can you explain the logic? I often find myself reaching for the 2nd Gladiator due to increased damage output and duplicated Rush. If you are armor stacking, then I can see the 2nd Sentry. I'm not saying I'm right. I'd like to understand different options. |
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Post by GrumpyBear on Apr 17, 2017 12:17:52 GMT
There are a lot of lists that struggle to crack an arm 23 Sentry on melee, let alone 25. A few sentries at the front gives you a reach beast who is fast as a gladiator, has reach, shield guard, and is hard to shoot down, let alone melee down.
The average khador Juggernaut with pow 19, will on average do 12 damage to a sentry with just an Agonizer. It will do 13 if it got the charge. Even with Fury adding +12 for the four hits, that's still 25 on average. So a buffed Khador Heavy does not kill a unbuffered Sentry.
That's just good math.
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Post by sentinel on Apr 17, 2017 12:19:42 GMT
1. You wont have alpha in skorne in most cases. So you need resilent beasts or infantry that can face the threat and tank it. Sentries are best at this.
2. I rate high survivability of sentry more than damage output of gladiator. Skorne have a lot of casters and tools to increase damage output and armour of beasts. Under that buffs sentry output for me is enought to beat most threats. For example, under naaresh / zaadesh2 / rasheth feat you still have to send 2 titans - gladiators or sentry - to beat stormwall. While sentries are much better at surviving after that.
3. If you want more damage output you go to aradius or bronzeback, never 2nd gladiator.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 18, 2017 2:48:56 GMT
Maybe I live in a weird meta. Maybe it's the factions I play (Protectorate, Skorne, Farrow). But ARM 21 has never provided any additional protection than ARM 19. Everyone always comes prepared to drop a Stormwall + Arcane Shield at the bare minimum, because it's guaranteed to show up at every tournament.
The one time I tried Double Sentries with an Agonizer under Rasheth, the Wurmwood player just laughed, used Loki to pull them away from the Agonizer, and kill them one by one. I've even once lost 3 ARM 22 beasts under Naraash's feat turn!
So I think the advice on Sentry is unfortunately not universal. That said, I am personally looking to practice more with Rasheth, double Agonizer, double Sentry in the future and really test the limits of what can handle it.
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Post by sentinel on Apr 18, 2017 6:33:32 GMT
Maybe I live in a weird meta. Maybe it's the factions I play (Protectorate, Skorne, Farrow). But ARM 21 has never provided any additional protection than ARM 19. Everyone always comes prepared to drop a Stormwall + Arcane Shield at the bare minimum, because it's guaranteed to show up at every tournament. The one time I tried Double Sentries with an Agonizer under Rasheth, the Wurmwood player just laughed, used Loki to pull them away from the Agonizer, and kill them one by one. I've even once lost 3 ARM 22 beasts under Naraash's feat turn! So I think the advice on Sentry is unfortunately not universal. That said, I am personally looking to practice more with Rasheth, double Agonizer, double Sentry in the future and really test the limits of what can handle it. Its not universal rule, but i found myself skewing armour more and more often. You also might have damage dealers in your list, but i would never thought about second gladiator - you can take aradius or bronzeback instead. In most cases that happens when you have resilent unit(s) which is going to initiate the fight. 2 sentries + agonizer is a package that is harder to clear than stormwall in many cases. Some lists packs debuff spell, which is more effective on a big single target. Legion and circle rely on wraithbane to deal with it. What this combo suffers from is control casters (Firetruck you Haley2 with all your robots), place and drag effects. You tell me that 3 you arm 22 titans were killed. How about arm 26 titans (sentry + agonizer under naaresh feat)? Use screening unit and shieldguard to counter Loki. Put 1 sentry in back of others, shieldguard that shot, laught at him. Sentry is a very good beast. |
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 18, 2017 9:21:13 GMT
Maybe I live in a weird meta. Maybe it's the factions I play (Protectorate, Skorne, Farrow). But ARM 21 has never provided any additional protection than ARM 19. Everyone always comes prepared to drop a Stormwall + Arcane Shield at the bare minimum, because it's guaranteed to show up at every tournament. The one time I tried Double Sentries with an Agonizer under Rasheth, the Wurmwood player just laughed, used Loki to pull them away from the Agonizer, and kill them one by one. I've even once lost 3 ARM 22 beasts under Naraash's feat turn! So I think the advice on Sentry is unfortunately not universal. That said, I am personally looking to practice more with Rasheth, double Agonizer, double Sentry in the future and really test the limits of what can handle it. I get what you are saying, but not every faction has as much Armor cracking as Skorne. ARM25 is everything but trivial. Take for example Haley2+Stormclads. A Stormclad does on average ~5 damage with a boosted sword damage roll to ARM25. Haley2 can buff this by 2 via Telekinesis (so about 7-8 damage per boosted roll) and can get up to 2 boosted and 1 unboosted sword attack out of the Stormclad for just shy of 20 damage. But then she spent 5 Focus (assuming she fueled the Stormclad for free) and has not even killed the Sentry. Admittedly in that example a Gladiator would be just as good as the Sentry will be showing its butt more often than not (assuming you didn't brin Orin, which you probably should). And in the Loki example above: Put one Sentry slightly in front of the other. If Loki tries to drag the front one, Shield Guard it to the back one and laugh. Or play Zaadesh. He solves so many problems. |
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Apr 18, 2017 9:57:36 GMT
Or play Zaadesh. He solves so many problems. I want to. He's not released yet - probably won't be here until June.  |
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 21, 2017 3:25:45 GMT
This is actually a math formula in disguise...
1. you need 1 gladiator x.x done and done...
2. Sentry are superior to gladiators in the aftermath.
19 armor can be cracked on average damage rolls by anything with 13+ base damage without even being forced to spend focus or fury for the extra di. 21 requires 15+, making several additional units need an additional di in order to crack that shell. Since average MAT and RAT is 6, 2 dice will, on average, hit both, making no need to use additional dice on the hit. This means that, if they were to focus fire on either the gladiator or the sentry, the sentry is more likely to survive by a long shot, since they can boost their biggest shots in order to do straight dice on the gladiator instead of boosting their smallest hits in order to attempt to nickel and dime the sentry to death. I've spoke of this before, but def 11 is no different from def 8 when you are considering effectiveness. (def 12 is when ranged units have to start rolling extra dice to insure hits) However, armor 20 and armor 19 is a huge gap that forces the opponent to pull the trigger on their focus and fury, draining their ability to do anything else that turn other than killing the singular armor 20+ unit. Since the Sentry also has a 2 inch weapon, which grants a larger threat range and more free strikes, he's the obvious choice.
On the other hand, I also agree that taking an Aradus would be better than taking a Sentry, depending on how you want to use them. Skorne's biggest issue is our inability to engage the enemy first without spending an insane amount of points. The Aradus, with their advance deploy, are like magnets for early focus fire, yet range attacks have to deal with them having 22 armor, 24 under the krea aura AND 13 def. That one engagement round is enough for the rest of our beasties to join the party and mop the floor with the trampled corpses.
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