Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Nov 2, 2018 0:12:52 GMT
I mean I like it, looks really fun. But I think the PP devs will shoot it down sadly.
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Post by michael on Nov 2, 2018 0:38:56 GMT
I mean I like it, looks really fun. But I think the PP devs will shoot it down sadly. Eh...you never know. They let Chosen in a +2" deployment theme in. Barnabus2 can stand there and facetank colossals or multiple Juggernauts significantly better than Butcher2 here can. But, anyway.
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Post by Cryptix on Nov 2, 2018 2:48:33 GMT
I'd honestly swap Murder Spree and Unnatural Disaster: Make the latter an ability on his card and the former a 3 cost spell with "This spell can be cast for free after the spellcaster has destroyed one or more enemy models." I'll hold my tongue on Impervious Flesh for now.
If anyone want to try and get a Vassal game in for testing tomorrow, I should be available from around 6 PM to 9 PM GMT-8.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Nov 2, 2018 5:16:57 GMT
I mean I like it, looks really fun. But I think the PP devs will shoot it down sadly. Eh...you never know. They let Chosen in a +2" deployment theme in. Barnabus2 can stand there and facetank colossals or multiple Juggernauts significantly better than Butcher2 here can. But, anyway. But they don't overlap with anything... They'll shoot it down because of his overlap with B3 Impervious Flesh is the lesser offender I think (and the one I would remove last). The combination of a free spell, Pac Man ability, and Murderous Spree crosses over to B3's lane too much to make the devs happy.
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Post by Netherby on Nov 2, 2018 6:04:13 GMT
Okay so the first problem I see is the combination of Berserk + Overtake + Thresher, especially since he no longer has 360 vision (and that rule doesn't exist any more).
So here is an example of a simple abuse of this combination: Say there is an enemy Colossal (or thing you want to kill) and there are some other enemy models around it, maybe screening or whatever. B2 charges so that he gets the kill target and as few of the other targets in his melee arc as possible. He threshers, hitting the target and the screening model. The screening model dies, he now moves so that he has the target and one other model in his arc. He continues to do this, potentially racking up a whole lot of extra hits on the Colossal for free. In fact the more things you screen something with, the more free hits he gets against it.
This problem mostly comes from having a fixed melee arc that you can abuse. But melee range could also be abused to do a similar thing.
To fix it, I think you need to have overtake only trigger when no ENEMY models are in his melee range AND make his thresher attack hit everything within 2" of him... So you don't give him 360 vision, but you make the attacks hit stuff outside his front arc. The reason for this is that thresher on every attack is super strong, so we need a down side that you can't avoid by just using facing (he will hit friendly models even if they behind him).
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Post by michael on Nov 2, 2018 12:28:30 GMT
Okay so the first problem I see is the combination of Berserk + Overtake + Thresher, especially since he no longer has 360 vision (and that rule doesn't exist any more). So here is an example of a simple abuse of this combination: Say there is an enemy Colossal (or thing you want to kill) and there are some other enemy models around it, maybe screening or whatever. B2 charges so that he gets the kill target and as few of the other targets in his melee arc as possible. He threshers, hitting the target and the screening model. The screening model dies, he now moves so that he has the target and one other model in his arc. He continues to do this, potentially racking up a whole lot of extra hits on the Colossal for free. In fact the more things you screen something with, the more free hits he gets against it. This problem mostly comes from having a fixed melee arc that you can abuse. But melee range could also be abused to do a similar thing. To fix it, I think you need to have overtake only trigger when no ENEMY models are in his melee range AND make his thresher attack hit everything within 2" of him... So you don't give him 360 vision, but you make the attacks hit stuff outside his front arc. The reason for this is that thresher on every attack is super strong, so we need a down side that you can't avoid by just using facing (he will hit friendly models even if they behind him). I specifically gave Butcher the standard Overtake because “crappy Overtake” that is the current Homicidal Maniac is far too limiting. As I said in my writeup, Murder Spree is specifically there to address concerns of “too many free attacks.” In all my tests, Butcher cleared his immediate vicinity with the first attack, or at worst left a Tough guy nearby. Regarding the colossal complaint: I would classify that as a play mistake and not a design flaw. Just like the current in-print B2 could possibly surf through the opponent’s entire army and kill their caster; is anybody complaining that the current B2 is too good? No. Because allowing that to happen is a play mistake, not a design flaw. Edited to add, because I forgot to finish my thought earlier: your scenario is possible right now. Cluster a bunch of dudes around the colossal and Butcher pops his feat. He gains two attacks per guy he destroys: one rage token, and the Berserk goes into the colossal. He buys another attack with the token, destroys another guy, and repeats until he runs out of bodies.
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Post by michael on Nov 2, 2018 12:32:58 GMT
I'd honestly swap Murder Spree and Unnatural Disaster: Make the latter an ability on his card and the former a 3 cost spell with "This spell can be cast for free after the spellcaster has destroyed one or more enemy models." I'll hold my tongue on Impervious Flesh for now. If anyone want to try and get a Vassal game in for testing tomorrow, I should be available from around 6 PM to 9 PM GMT-8. As I mentioned previously: tying even more rules to B2 killing models isn’t the way to go. It front-loads way too much on “must kill something in melee to function”, and that’s no fun.
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Post by Netherby on Nov 2, 2018 14:29:34 GMT
My point is that his 'crappy overtake' is actually completely fine. You just use facing so he only ever has 1 target in his melee arc and it works the same as regular overtake. What it stops is him dancing around models WITHOUT killing them. Which is very un-bucher-like.
Yes, it's a play mistake to screen if your opponents thing wins when you screen. But it doesn't have good counter play. I screen, now B2 gets tons of free attacks without even popping feat. I don't screen, now his army just gets to charge the thing because I didn't screen...
Having to pop feat to achieve it on the other hand is completely acceptable.
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Post by Havock on Nov 2, 2018 16:15:15 GMT
Plenty of ways to fix Butcher2.
I think casting one spell for free is a good find and would already go a long way. Like most of Khador's legacy stuff, it is, however, not on PP's radar: We're the WGK and Armored Corps faction now and they are fine with that, for now.
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Post by michael on Nov 2, 2018 19:25:41 GMT
My point is that his 'crappy overtake' is actually completely fine. You just use facing so he only ever has 1 target in his melee arc and it works the same as regular overtake. What it stops is him dancing around models WITHOUT killing them. Which is very un-bucher-like. Yes, it's a play mistake to screen if your opponents thing wins when you screen. But it doesn't have good counter play. I screen, now B2 gets tons of free attacks without even popping feat. I don't screen, now his army just gets to charge the thing because I didn't screen... Having to pop feat to achieve it on the other hand is completely acceptable. His current version of "crappy Overtake", a.k.a. the current "Homicidal Maniac", has a lot of serious issues that I already discussed previously in this thread. But in short: being required to destroy your own models first is stupid. Accidentally destroying them, because Butcher isn't exactly careful and he's an axe-wielding murderer, is a lot more fun. At least to me! I've gotten completely screwed by the current Homicidal Maniac too many times by having my own models nearby, and then succeeding in a WGI Tough roll, or having a warjack there, or whatever.
Like, seriously: I have, at least three times now that I can vaguely recall, started the B2 Pac-man chain. Killed one model, great. The next enemy model, which is the key to him being able to dance through many more enemy models, is near one of my own warjacks. My movement takes me into range and LOS of both, because that's just how it has to work due to positioning, and Butcher's spree ends right there, because he is required to destroy his own warjack before attacking the enemy model if he wants to progress. (And usually, no, there was no meaningful way to get the warjack out of the way first.)
It's stupid and makes me angry that the in-print Homicidal Maniac works that way.
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Post by michael on Nov 2, 2018 19:26:07 GMT
Also, apologies: I still haven't gotten around to most of those replies on pages 8 and 9. I'll get there eventually, when I'm not working on models...
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Post by Netherby on Nov 3, 2018 5:26:20 GMT
I agree that the current version isn't great (but you can usually work around it if you think about what you want to do in advance with careful positioning), which is why I was saying it should only care about enemy models in his melee range. That way he still has to kill all the enemies he is in melee with before he can move on to killing more, which I think is more thematic for him. And if he is going to have thresher on every attack, I really think he HAS to have the restriction in place. Without thresher? Sure, just have regular overtake, with it? Then he needs a bit more restriction on the trigger conditions (as I described before you end up with a no-win scenario for your opponent when he has thresher and can dance around as he likes). Having to kill friendly models, is of course pretty stupid as a gameplay mechanic (but kinda thematic, when he starts killing things he can't tell the difference between friend and foe). The reason it works the way it does currently is a hold over Mk2, they just kept the rule basically the same but removed thresher from him. I'm guessing he didn't get much Dev time and they didn't actually think about why the rule was like that in the first place and why it wouldn't need to be that way any more after the changes in Mk3. I'm not sure they actually want/care for B2 to be competitive in any way... Impervious Flesh and a free spell are good changes. Though the free spell should probably be a Blood Boon sort of deal (he kills something and gets to cast a spell for free once per turn)? I can't see PP giving him Impervious Flesh though Maybe a melee only version? What comes to my mind, which is pretty much right out of the fluff and would replace Impervious and Ret Strike (also Lola would only thresher during activation). Deadly Dance/Homicidal Waltz: While in Melee this model cannot become knocked down. If this model is knocked down and is targeted by a melee attack, it immediately stands up. When this model is hit by a melee attack, roll an additional dice for damage and drop the highest result. If a melee attack against this model misses or a damage roll fails to exceed ARM, this model may immediately move up to 1" directly towards the attacker and make a standard melee attack targeting it.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Nov 3, 2018 7:14:23 GMT
Is it wierd that I'm seriously considering a Warmachine cosplay right now? I'm thinking either Harlan Versh (because it probably shouldn't be too hard) or Doomreaver Barber (because who wouldn't want an insane criminal driven mad with bloodlust to hold a cursed Fellrazor at their throat?).
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 3, 2018 9:30:45 GMT
The Cephalyx always gave me the demon barber vibe
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Nov 3, 2018 15:04:48 GMT
michael , first let me say THANK YOU for putting so much time and effort into thinking about Butcher 2 and putting yourself out there with something tested for discussion. I think you’ve developed some very interesting concepts in your draft stat card. I tend to agree with many of the folks on this thread that suggest some of the optics won’t fly with PP even if the changes are good. Random thought — I don’t think PP Devs care or know about what gets posted in loremahordes. They seem more focused on Facebook. Aspirational thought — if we (the Loremahordes Khador community) can eventually converge on a set changes that can be summarized out of this entertaining discussion, it might be helpful to carry the conversation over the the Facebook Khador community. Here are my own thoughts and comments. Arcane Power. I really, really like this change. Michael, it’s inspired. I HATE that Butcher 2 feels so focus strapped. Even when you get a good focus roll, his spell list seems incidental to his card since you either need to camp or want to waste things with more axe to face. Impervious Flesh. I get what you’re trying to do. I like what you’re trying to do. Butcher 2 needs to be more survivable on the front lines. But, this change just makes no sense to me in terms of his fluff or use of this mechanic in the game, and even suggesting it in CID is likely to inspire vitriol, rage, and accusations of baseless wishlisting. So, I’d recommend we think about other ways to make Butcher more survivable. My own suggestion is to add Steady and Unyielding to his card. Both are thematic to Khador. Also, it’s way to easy to kill casters who get out front by just knocking them down. Unyielding is less fantastical than Impervious Flesh, and both abilities seem “right” to me on Butcher’s card. Steady + Tough which Butcher has natively is a really nice combination which basically gives you a 1-in-3 chance to pull a rabbit out a hat. I do like the Homicidal Waltz idea from Netherby , but simply adding Steady & Unyielding is simpler and easy to understand. Homicidal Maniac, Retalitory Strike & Overtake. Yes. I like these. Nice changes. Murder Spree. I don’t like this change. I understand what you’re trying to do, but this isn’t the direction I would want to take Butcher 2. It feels unbalanced on the face of it - no, I haven’t done math so this is a gut check, but given that I and other dedicated Khador players are having this gut reaction I can only imagine the reaction from those outside our communities when seeing this suggestion. Yikes. I also don’t like a mechanic which cuts off my own ability to pac man through armies, and cutting ability to use Overtake with an uncontrollable thresher feels off to me. In summary I suggest this for the front of his card: Arcane Dementia Arcane Power (new) Conferred Rage Homicidal Maniac (michael’s version) Steady (new) Unyielding (new) Retalitory Strike (new) Overtake (new) Berserk (deleted) Impervious Flesh (skip) Murder Spree (skip) Unnatural Disaster. Regarding his spell list, I really like adding one spell that does something for melee troops. On this note, michael, I think you’re inspired. In terms of game mechanics, I truly don’t like abilities that feel skornergistic, and so don’t like the wording on Unnatural Disaster. I think I’d be OK with it if the duration was Turn not Round so that the bloodlust backlash is really only hurting you on free strikes and retalitory strikes. Honestly, I think modifying Unnatural Disaster to COST 3 and changing the duration to TURN might be perfect. Butcher 2’s CMD stat is 7, so the threat extension on this is somewhat limited. On paper it feels too limited, so the question is if you use CONTROL range is it too powerful? Anyway, I think the most important thing (for me, anyway) for a new spell on Butcher 2’s card is that it synergize with Doomreavers. Something that increases their damage output feels gratuitious, so the additional die on attack rolls seems nice. The other ability I’d like to see on his card, reminiscent of Butcher 3, is an ability that grants friendly warrior models Take Down. So, maybe this... Sounds of Death. While in the spellcasters Command range, friendly Faction warrior models gain +2 to melee attack rolls and Take Down. (Cost 3) So, anyway, that’s my 2 cents.
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