|
Post by jdeckert on Nov 1, 2018 17:12:18 GMT
Super rough math, but if you have Fury on Butcher (and I almost always would, I think), there's also about a 10% chance that he cripples the juggernaut with a retaliatory strike (~30% chance he does enough damage, 1 in 3 chance that he hits the right columns). So, to be safe, you would probably want 3 heavies. If you send 2 and they don't get it done, you probably just lost. michael, did anyone in your test games assassinate Butcher?
|
|
|
Post by jdeckert on Nov 1, 2018 17:13:51 GMT
See, I knew nobody would read what I wrote... This iteration of Butcher2 is resilient by design. I already said one fully-loaded heavy would not do the job, and it will likely take two to kill him. I read it - and I'm not saying it's broken. Reserving judgment. And I'll do some more math.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Nov 1, 2018 17:14:41 GMT
Also, I only skimmed like one reply, so something or the other. I found myself in a cranky mood today, quite unintentionally. Still working on that part.
Just... put this on the table if you don’t believe me. Play a real game with him. He’s strong but he has real weaknesses that competent players can exploit. I did not exhaustively list them all chiefly because it takes too much time to do so. I’m not getting paid for this.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Nov 1, 2018 17:21:13 GMT
Super rough math, but if you have Fury on Butcher (and I almost always would, I think), there's also about a 10% chance that he cripples the juggernaut with a retaliatory strike (~30% chance he does enough damage, 1 in 3 chance that he hits the right columns). So, to be safe, you would probably want 3 heavies. If you send 2 and they don't get it done, you probably just lost. michael, did anyone in your test games assassinate Butcher? Yes. In my last game, Butcher2 died to 4 charging Battle-Driven Eye of Menoth Knights Exemplar (not minifeat turn) and Fire of Salvation. Then we rewound a turn, I forgot about Road to War on Severius0, and Fire of Salvation did it solo. I played several test games solo and assassinated him in a few of them, chiefly in unremarkable ways. Also: remember when I said “fundamentals” in my “how do you beat him?” bit of the analysis? Knock him down and he’s not Retaliatory Striking anything. I found that he is not difficult to knock down, especially when he’s gone all out for the feat turn and ends up in the middle of the opponent’s army.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Nov 1, 2018 18:03:53 GMT
See, I knew nobody would read what I wrote... This iteration of Butcher2 is resilient by design. I get that. But there is resilient by design, and so resilient that a significant portion of models in the game cannot be a threat to him. That is where he seems to have ended up, and I think that is too much.
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Nov 1, 2018 18:23:37 GMT
I read it. I have absolutely no compunction to put it on the table, as all I would have to do is camp focus and run forwards. Pretty sure he can't be killed by shooting. He can't be killed by a unit unless he's knocked down or stationary unless they can all survive a 9+3d6 attack from a P19 weaponmaster due to the interaction of Retaliatory Strike and Murder Spree. If they charge 3 or more models in then the Retaliatory Strike would trigger Arcane Dementia.
If he camps 4, as per your example, he could be knocked down and would still only have a 26% chance of dying to two fully loaded charging Juggernauts.
All I have to do to win is not put him in charge range of three heavies simultaneously. He's got a good chance of taking a colossal to the face; only a 33% chance of Conquest killing him with no camp.
Given that you've removed the need for him to spend focus, you can always camp at least 2.
Compare it to the others? Assuming that he's knocked down and camping 4, and taking double jugger to the face, he's significantly more durable than Karchev in the same situation. The maths is trickier with the others due to transfers.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Nov 1, 2018 19:02:15 GMT
I read it. I have absolutely no compunction to put it on the table, as all I would have to do is camp focus and run forwards. Pretty sure he can't be killed by shooting. He can't be killed by a unit unless he's knocked down or stationary unless they can all survive a 9+3d6 attack from a P19 weaponmaster due to the interaction of Retaliatory Strike and Murder Spree. If they charge 3 or more models in then the Retaliatory Strike would trigger Arcane Dementia. If he camps 4, as per your example, he could be knocked down and would still only have a 26% chance of dying to two fully loaded charging Juggernauts. All I have to do to win is not put him in charge range of three heavies simultaneously. He's got a good chance of taking a colossal to the face; only a 33% chance of Conquest killing him with no camp. Given that you've removed the need for him to spend focus, you can always camp at least 2. Compare it to the others? Assuming that he's knocked down and camping 4, and taking double jugger to the face, he's significantly more durable than Karchev in the same situation. The maths is trickier with the others due to transfers. Please show your work. (I say that because my last test opponent also made the exact same claim — “All he has to do is camp and run forward and he’s invincible!” — and so I did that and he killed a 4-camp Butcher handily.)
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Nov 1, 2018 19:46:11 GMT
Shooting: Just assuming on that one, haven't done any maths. But he is completely invulnerable to P12 unboosted shots.
Because of how units activate, all members of the unit move into position to attack B2, meaning that by definition they are within 2" as there is no unit with more than a 2" melee range. First one attacks, and if they hit, they trigger Retaliatory Strike. This combines with both Murder Spree and Unnatural Disaster, allowing you to make an attack against everyone within your melee range with an extra dice on attack rolls from UD and an extra dice on damage rolls from WM. On average you hit DEF19. There is no single wound infantry that can survive a hit of average damage, unless they have tough, which will still prevent them from attacking. If you kill any of them, you get to make all those attacks again against any survivors due to the way you've worded Homicidal Maniac.
Arcane Dementia has 'in the last round', so models killed off turn will count. Unnatural Disaster will fairly obviously have been cast for free, and is not an upkeep so it can't be hit with spell hate or dispels.
For the jack calculations I just plugged the numbers into buy or boost. If both casters are camping 4 and knocked down, Karchev has a 59.4% chance to die to two fully loaded charging juggernauts, and B2 has 26.5%
|
|
|
Post by jdeckert on Nov 1, 2018 20:25:49 GMT
Does buy or boost have an impervious flesh option or are you calculating his ARM as 21/22? I haven't seen it before, that's a handy tool!
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Nov 1, 2018 20:29:53 GMT
You can click the edit button for each attack and it will give you options for number of damage dice to roll for each one, so I set those to 1, added automatic hitting to simulate being knocked down, and added in 'charge' to 2 of the P19s, having set it up with two P19 charges, two P15 initials, and 4 extra focus to simulate 2 juggernauts with full focus spending one to charge.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Nov 1, 2018 21:57:50 GMT
I still haven’t really read most replies yet, so apologies there. I’ve been in a really foul mood for most of today; I’m going to blame the rain.
I’ll sleep on it and come back refreshed and ready to discuss tomorrow.
I take things personally when I ought not do so. I also, for whatever reason, feel like it’s my responsibility to fix things, such as Butcher2, even though it is not.
For what it’s worth: I wouldn’t have posted if I thought it was at all some of the half-baked crap like some of the suggestions put forth by CID participants. I feel like there’s a tremendous amount of subtlety baked into this.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Nov 1, 2018 22:25:05 GMT
Michael - I like where you are going with things but I think that it gets A) A bit too fiddling with all the special rules on the melee atack and 2) Impervious flesh is just a very powerful ability to have on an innate ARM 18 caster with 20 boxes _AND_ tough.
But I think you are smart on in the direction. For a variable focus caster that WANTS to be toward the front it is an NPE if you roll a bunch of 1s (not that unlikely) throughout the game and have to play him WAY back. Basically a game of can I get a good roll.
SO what about this?
Lets ditch IF but offer 2 other abilities.....
1) Field Marshal Shield Guard. Suddenly it is VERY hard to shoot butcher off the table plus it pulls CRage back into play 2) He can't be charged by living warrior models (aka parts of B3's feat is in play)
Now we have upped his survivability rate. You have fun positioning issues to ensure that your jacks do not get in the way. We have limited the number of things that can kill Butcher even when he rolls 1s so he can be more toward the front line.
Make overtake overtake per Gurlok and then we are good to go. I still would like "free power attacks" with CR as I think that would help out a lot as well.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Nov 1, 2018 22:44:51 GMT
Michael - I like where you are going with things but I think that it gets A) A bit too fiddling with all the special rules on the melee atack and 2) Impervious flesh is just a very powerful ability to have on an innate ARM 18 caster with 20 boxes _AND_ tough. But I think you are smart on in the direction. For a variable focus caster that WANTS to be toward the front it is an NPE if you roll a bunch of 1s (not that unlikely) throughout the game and have to play him WAY back. Basically a game of can I get a good roll. SO what about this? Lets ditch IF but offer 2 other abilities..... 1) Field Marshal Shield Guard. Suddenly it is VERY hard to shoot butcher off the table plus it pulls CRage back into play 2) He can't be charged by living warrior models (aka parts of B3's feat is in play) Now we have upped his survivability rate. You have fun positioning issues to ensure that your jacks do not get in the way. We have limited the number of things that can kill Butcher even when he rolls 1s so he can be more toward the front line. Make overtake overtake per Gurlok and then we are good to go. I still would like "free power attacks" with CR as I think that would help out a lot as well. For what it’s worth: Overtake is the bog-standard Overtake. Will comment on th rest at a future time.
|
|
Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
|
Post by Ganso on Nov 1, 2018 23:10:51 GMT
Gotta say, I'm delighted with the work you put into this Michael, congrats man! That said, I have no intention of playing this because I don't usually play with Homebrew models (homebrew scenarios are another thing). I'm gonna wait for the actual CID to come out. I will however participate in the conversation cause wish listing is awesome Without touching on balance issues, best I could say is that he doesn't differentiate himself enough from B3 thematically (which is why I don't think this configuration will fly in CID). Murder Spree, charging friendlies, overtake, free spell, impervious flesh is thematically (and mechanically) to close to B3's Charge+Energize+Impending doom+Flashing Blade+Feat to Camp. You can argue that B2 can surf, while B3 can't. In that case, congratulations on making a better B3 I guess?
|
|
|
Post by michael on Nov 1, 2018 23:32:14 GMT
Gotta say, I'm delighted with the work you put into this Michael, congrats man! That said, I have no intention of playing this because I don't usually play with Homebrew models (homebrew scenarios are another thing). I'm gonna wait for the actual CID to come out. I will however participate in the conversation cause wish listing is awesome Without touching on balance issues, best I could say is that he doesn't differentiate himself enough from B3 thematically (which is why I don't think this configuration will fly in CID). Murder Spree, charging friendlies, overtake, free spell, impervious flesh is thematically (and mechanically) to close to B3's Charge+Energize+Impending doom+Flashing Blade+Feat to Camp. You can argue that B2 can surf, while B3 can't. In that case, congratulations on making a better B3 I guess? Butcher3 is the biggest problem with Butcher2. I think I said that here in this thread already somewhere. There are some differentiating factors that can only become apparent with use. Unnatural Disaster is the biggest. (For example: try it with Iron Fangs and Demo Corps.)
|
|