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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 17, 2018 21:03:29 GMT
I'm not sure if you've understood how Arcane Vortex works with units; your Arcane Vortex model has to be within 3" of the specific model targeted. So you need to have your Locus extremely close to the front lines, and have the whole unit clustered around it, to be sure of keeping them safe.
Whereas with Mage Static you can apply it from 5" away, then have the Locus move and do things, including go and give more units Mage Static *and* attack. Then the units can go and do whatever the hell they like and retain the protection. One Locus can protect three units, theoretically, which is presumably most of your army.
And you don't need to worry about keeping tokens on the Locus; feel free to use them shooting or whatever, because you don't need to save them for the possibility of needing to use a reactive ability. Just activate your caster first to get some more tokens.
As a specific anti-magic ability on one model, sure, Arcane Vortex wins by miles. But one Locus can put Mage Static over a huge area.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Oct 17, 2018 21:38:53 GMT
All fair points you guys make And I can see it being more usefull against spells that are not just parasite, but Rebuke or stuff like that. Even better against spd 5/6 arc nodes or even casters without one. Random nukes, random actual spell casting units etc. Still think Cryx doesn't care though, and that you could park the Locus B2B with the tripod of Recipcroators if it had Arcane Vortex. (and Obstructors are not worth Arcane Vortex'ing anyway)
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Post by Korianneder on Oct 17, 2018 22:02:35 GMT
All fair points you guys make And I can see it being more usefull against spells that are not just parasite, but Rebuke or stuff like that. Even better against spd 5/6 arc nodes or even casters without one. Random nukes, random actual spell casting units etc. Still think Cryx doesn't care though, and that you could park the Locus B2B with the tripod of Recipcroators if it had Arcane Vortex. (and Obstructors are not worth Arcane Vortex'ing anyway) You seem to be really concerned about Cryx debuffs for some reason. Lets look at a few of the debuffs in common Cryx casters and arcane vortex vs mage static. Gaspy3: Usually gives most focus to mobility/jacks and his jacks don't need calamity to kill our infantry. Overload with recursion either way. Skarre1: Doesn't really cast debuffs. Technically has hellfire just like gaspy3 but usually casts dark guidance/camps Skarre3: Literally no offensive spells Denny1: Crippling grasp and parasite goes down to range 3 with mage static which gives her arc node an inch of wiggle room if we're talking reciprocators. Definitely doable but with a commitment and you can spread your unit out so it's harder for her to kill them all. With arcane vortex she feats and casts venom targeting a model outside of arcane vortex range and kills a unit of recips and the locus because they're all so bunched up together. Denny2: Hellmouth goes down to rng 3 which again only gives an inch of wiggle room with the arcnode. You know what's pretty good at killing arcnodes though? A boosted pow 12 from a Locus. It needs to roll 6 damage on column 4 or 10 damage on column 3 which requires an 8 or 12 respectively. Add in a second Locus and it's high odds that arc node is gone. A huge downside to arcane vortex is that it's requiring your very good gun to be within 3 inches of your frontline infantry and camping 3 tokens to arcane vortex things. If you only camp 2 it's possible that Deathjack/Cryx caster just runs you out of tokens. That's a four/eight points of very good guns standing there effectively doing nothing. Because you've only got two Locuses (Loci?) so you're only protecting two units. They can just cast their debuffs on other models. Mage static effectively can give your entire army the buff. I'd take mage static any day of the week.
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Post by feketelovag on Oct 18, 2018 10:30:29 GMT
Fair points, one and all, though, I still think Arcane Vortex wins just hands down. While you are correct in that it would be hard to bubble wrap a whole unit around the Locus it can still at least protect key models, while the arc node will just come closer and get its spell off still with Mage Static being moot. I really have a hard time seeing the arc node being 5" closer as mattering a whole lot except in corner cases. That all said, Id much rather have something that can prevent my TEP from being blinded than giving limited protection to chaff models that are there to die and to bring back (hence the victim stats). Unfortunately, bad game experiences will continue to happen seeing as this key model will be missing from that theme. Btw, the Locus will have to be fairly far up anyways if you want to use its gun since if Im not mistaken it only has a 12" gun which is charge range of a lot of things. Korianneder - Pretty skewed examples there, especially towards the end. In the age of pre-measurement its REALLY easy to place a model 1/4" out of reach let alone 1". Might have been difficult before when you could only eyeball it but not anymore. Nice example with the venom spray, though you seem to ignore the part that it would be arm20 vs pow10. Also, how would Mage Static prevent this exact same thing from happening? Sure you could spread out a bit more and not get so many models under the spray but then again he could also just caste parasite before the venom so its not dice -10 . As for your last example Im not really sure how you are expecting a Locus to shoot the arc node first? Its spd 5, rng12 so max 17" threat range. Arc node runs for 14 and spell rng down to 3, so same threat except you are saying how you want the Locus away from the front line so arc node wins. Comes in gets its spell off, does its dmg and dies to you next turn. Your opponent will probably be happy with that exchange otherwise he wouldnt have sent in the arc node in the first place. Like I said, fair points, the two abilities obviously have different roles. I just find that I dont have a use for Mage Static. Though its also obvious that we have different styles of play and most likely differing metas where different things matter. To me Mage Static doesnt matter. Heck I dont think Id even use it, except on my caster because having to come 5" closer to get at him would probably be difficult. So Id much rather just save the tokens to boost than to hand it out and not effect things.
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 18, 2018 10:43:44 GMT
That all said, Id much rather have something that can prevent my TEP from being blinded than giving limited protection to chaff models that are there to die and to bring back (hence the victim stats). Unfortunately, bad game experiences will continue to happen seeing as this key model will be missing from that theme. Since you can't take the Locus in DI, I guess this is kind of moot? EDIT: Oh, sorry, just read that back and realised you said that
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Post by Korianneder on Oct 18, 2018 12:27:02 GMT
Every caster I play in convergence stays as far back as they can. I prevent them being attacked through positioning and range. Arcane vortex isn't necessary in most games and mage static on my caster is sufficiently enough protection in those cases.
You're right that mage static wont protect my units. I don't need it for that. I need it to bring my opponent closer. You said that my opponent would gladly trade an arc mode 5 inches further. Why? When most of the models they kill are going to be coming back next turn and now the arc mode is within charge range of them instead of 5 inches further back. 5 inches is a lot especially if I can put mage static on basically my entire army. Imagine if all of Iron Moms spells were range 3.
I can talk about it from the other side too. One of my main casters is Lukas in CG who casts a ton of spells and has better arc nodes than cryx. Dropping his spells to range 5 from 10 is basically giving everything in the enemy army stealth. With arcane vortex I just ignore the couple of models that are protected and kill other things or I overload the vortex model with more than 3 spells. Because that locus has to camp all 3. Its not boosting anything. With mage static you toss out mage static somewhere then boost hit and damage.
If the Locus was in DI where I had important models then arcane vortex would absolutely be better. And most models don't threat 12 inches in melee. That's speed 7 with 2 inch reach. By your argument you should never bring teps because they're only rng 10. But the same things that protect a tep also protect a locus. A locus can stand 12 inches back behind a sea of infantry. It shouldn't get charged most games.
My example was denny1, so if you're assuming arm 20 after her feat then you have to be looking at Lucant with deceleration. I've played Lucant CL against Denny1 ghost fleet. Purely for one reason, dissolution bolt being our previous only anti magic. Dissolution bolt shuts down that arc mode. Now Denny's not casting spells anywhere because she has to be within 3 inches of the target herself.
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Post by feketelovag on Oct 18, 2018 18:00:46 GMT
You talk about having to camp all 3 points with arcane vortex yet being able to protect your whole army while boosting hit and dmg. Correct me if Im wrong but arent you only protecting 1 unit only if you are boosting hit & dmg? Also, you say you will just overload the 3 tokens. Okay, and what are you going to caste the 4th spell with? How much focus does this imaginary caster have? Dont get me wrong, it can be done but that would pretty much mean the opposing caster blowing his entire stack to do it. Like I said, different metas. Most stuff here is either cavalry or has some spd boosts so threats are 12+. As for never bringing TEPs? Thats why I pair my TEPs with Axis because his feat gives me 2 turns of shooting and most things die to 2 turns of TEP shooting. You never mentioned feat and I was going off flat arm vs pow. So that would be arm18 vs pow10 under feat. Im still plenty fine with that. Your mage static would be arm15 vs pow 10 seeing as he can get parasite off before the sprays (not so with arcane vortex). As to Denny bringing only one arc node? Umm, kinda getting the vibe that you dont play against Cryx much or you are just giving really skewed one sided examples that just dont hold water if you take a closer look at it. Either way, Im done here. Back to the shadows and my lurking .
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Post by Korianneder on Oct 18, 2018 19:34:58 GMT
You talk about having to camp all 3 points with arcane vortex yet being able to protect your whole army while boosting hit and dmg. Correct me if Im wrong but arent you only protecting 1 unit only if you are boosting hit & dmg? Also, you say you will just overload the 3 tokens. Okay, and what are you going to caste the 4th spell with? How much focus does this imaginary caster have? Dont get me wrong, it can be done but that would pretty much mean the opposing caster blowing his entire stack to do it. Like I said, different metas. Most stuff here is either cavalry or has some spd boosts so threats are 12+. As for never bringing TEPs? Thats why I pair my TEPs with Axis because his feat gives me 2 turns of shooting and most things die to 2 turns of TEP shooting. You never mentioned feat and I was going off flat arm vs pow. So that would be arm18 vs pow10 under feat. Im still plenty fine with that. Your mage static would be arm15 vs pow 10 seeing as he can get parasite off before the sprays (not so with arcane vortex). As to Denny bringing only one arc node? Umm, kinda getting the vibe that you dont play against Cryx much or you are just giving really skewed one sided examples that just dont hold water if you take a closer look at it. Either way, Im done here. Back to the shadows and my lurking . You should double check what I said. "She feats and casts venom." Lukas has a feat that gives him more focus. I should have clarified this because crucible guard is a newer faction. He's not an imaginary caster. I routinely have 17 to 20 focus on the turn it's important which gives me 5 to 6 spells. Cryx will bring deathjack a lot of the time which can cast one or two spells, usually hellfire or hellmouth. Warwitches bring spells, withershadow combine bring spells. All of these can burn out you arcane vortexes. Cryx players have been playing around arcane vortex since as far as I remember and I started playing early mk2. Cryx is one of the main opponents I play against. I never said denny brings only 1 arcnode. But arcane vortex can't cover the whole board, it's in a single small area. Denny players rarely put two arcnodes together because it doesn't let her spells cover the board. They put one on each side and if there's a third it's kept further back in reserve as a precaution. With mage static they would actually be arm 11 if she feated and cast parasite on them. They'd also be spread out and hiding behind a unit of obstructors. Bunching your models up and relying on shield wall has never been a good idea against cryx. Arcane vortex best plan is to camp 3 tokens on a tightly packed unit of reciprocators. You might be able to go down to 2 tokens provided no death jack or other outside spells in the list, but less than 2 and the caster can just burn the first one and cast it again. My plan is to put mage static on a leading unit of obstructors that are spread out (1 token) then get work out of my four point model with a boosted shot. I have the option of putting mage static on two to three units if I don't need both boosts. Just like you mentioned with TEP you can bring Axis in CL to protect both your front line and your Locus that are back behind them. Rng 12 gun doesn't mean its dying next turn. Which cavalry are you seeing? Most cavalry seems to be falling out of favor. I usually see legion chosen, troll tuffalo, and I hear ret destors are better now, but we don't have a ret player in my area since I stopped playing them. For most of the competitive people I talk to storm lances, ferox, and vengers are falling out of favor for other models. My examples and view come from years of playing both versions. I've used orin midwinter numerous times who is an easier arcane vortex to protect using stealth and small base. I also played retribution for most of mk2 where I could put a soulless escort on any unit to give them mage static. If you'd like to go back to lurking that's entirely your decision. For me though this is the most active the convergence board has been in awhile and I like seeing other people's viewpoints.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Oct 18, 2018 19:40:29 GMT
Played a game against primal terrors Anamag yesterday and tried all the CID updates... REALLY impressed with the recursion u see with Lucant, the Enumirator is baller just because she’s so easy to hide, and the FL... it was a model on the table... Could have been the matchup but... it really didn’t do much for me. I just simply found myself wanting other models instead. One shot didn’t really make a huge difference, by the time I could dispel something it was usually to late (as my opponent already had the spell doing what he wanted done), and mage static didn’t really help as he wasn’t casting offensive stuff any way. Over all, I’m stoked for the new changes... not stoked for the new model.
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Post by Korianneder on Oct 18, 2018 20:11:14 GMT
Played a game against primal terrors Anamag yesterday and tried all the CID updates... REALLY impressed with the recursion u see with Lucant, the Enumirator is baller just because she’s so easy to hide, and the FL... it was a model on the table... Could have been the matchup but... it really didn’t do much for me. I just simply found myself wanting other models instead. One shot didn’t really make a huge difference, by the time I could dispel something it was usually to late (as my opponent already had the spell doing what he wanted done), and mage static didn’t really help as he wasn’t casting offensive stuff any way. Over all, I’m stoked for the new changes... not stoked for the new model. Did you use the proposed rule that they were removing the 3 inch limitation on the enigma foundry? So you just have to bring the model back in formation completely within two inches of the foundry. They mentioned it on the dev chat. What models would you have wanted instead? Steelsoul protector?
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Oct 18, 2018 21:06:21 GMT
Played a game against primal terrors Anamag yesterday and tried all the CID updates... REALLY impressed with the recursion u see with Lucant, the Enumirator is baller just because she’s so easy to hide, and the FL... it was a model on the table... Could have been the matchup but... it really didn’t do much for me. I just simply found myself wanting other models instead. One shot didn’t really make a huge difference, by the time I could dispel something it was usually to late (as my opponent already had the spell doing what he wanted done), and mage static didn’t really help as he wasn’t casting offensive stuff any way. Over all, I’m stoked for the new changes... not stoked for the new model. Did you use the proposed rule that they were removing the 3 inch limitation on the enigma foundry? So you just have to bring the model back in formation completely within two inches of the foundry. They mentioned it on the dev chat. What models would you have wanted instead? Steelsoul protector? Nope, used just the regular “within 3 inches of a model in the unit and 2 of the foundry” thing and it worked really well. Due to my idea for the list I paid the 4 points for the Lotus, and figured with it I could have gotten a second enumerator, or a fourth foundry (I only played with 3). I mean my list was in no way optimal, and I made HUGE mistakes with positioning, but it still preformed REALLY well all things considered. If I did it again, I’d probably have dropped the locus, and changed a few things for another enumirator and a fourth foundry
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Post by Korianneder on Oct 18, 2018 21:42:28 GMT
Nice! I haven't used enumerators in CL yet. I can see the benefit of them with the vengeance fix and increased command for the new foundries. My most recent CL list is
War Room Army
Convergence of Cyriss - Live, die, repeat
Theme: Clockwork Legions 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Father Lucant, The Divinity Architect - WJ: +28 - Corollary - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Diffuser - PC: 6 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Galvanizer - PC: 5 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Galvanizer - PC: 5 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Galvanizer - PC: 5 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5)
Enigma Foundry - PC: 0 Enigma Foundry - PC: 0 Enigma Foundry - PC: 0 Enigma Foundry - PC: 4 Steelsoul Protector - PC: 4 Steelsoul Protector - PC: 4
Obstructors - Leader & 9 Grunts: 11 Obstructors - Leader & 9 Grunts: 11 Reciprocators - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18 Reciprocators - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18 Clockwork Angels - Leader & 2 Grunts: 5
THEME: Clockwork Legions
I'll probably trade the steelsouls for locus. I'm excited because I got into convergence for the medium bases and recursion and I feel like now I'll be able to take it to tournaments without actively hurting myself.
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Post by Korianneder on Nov 1, 2018 18:26:07 GMT
So now the locus is in warroom and being pre released at warmachine weekend. It turned out pretty much exactly like the last week of cid. Does anyone have a clockwork legion list they're planning? I've got a tournament November 17th and am thinking about taking CL even though the update probably won't be out by then.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Nov 1, 2018 22:24:47 GMT
Not really..
Your list is the one posted above? I can't really see which lists in the current meta CL is good into.. And the Enigma Foundry is not updated yet?
P+S 12 is bad against the MMM we have now, and Locust can't really fix that?: Primal terror/blightbringer is not an upkeep Madrak1 and/or Krielstone is not an upkeep Death Knell/arcana is not an upkeep MOW not an upkeep etc. etc.
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Post by Korianneder on Nov 2, 2018 2:27:49 GMT
Not really.. Your list is the one posted above? I can't really see which lists in the current meta CL is good into.. And the Enigma Foundry is not updated yet? P+S 12 is bad against the MMM we have now, and Locust can't really fix that?: Primal terror/blightbringer is not an upkeep Madrak1 and/or Krielstone is not an upkeep Death Knell/arcana is not an upkeep MOW not an upkeep etc. etc. The idea with CL isn't to kill the enemy models in one turn. It's a sandpaper strategy. Madrak1 is rough because rfp, but pt and mow don't really bring rfp. With Lucant obstructors are dice off 4 against shocktroopers due to positive charge and ignoring shield wall. And now they get to charge each turn, once the update goes through. Ogrun can be rough with berserk if you're not careful with spacing. All of the lists you listed have a hard time reaching deep. They'll have difficulty taking out the enigma foundries. Be the river that erodes the canyon over time rather than the sledgehammer being swung.
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