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Post by gobber on Oct 17, 2018 23:13:25 GMT
There is some precedent for warcaster to junior warcaster downgrades (Prospero's original body nearly died and was rebuilt which lessened his arcane capabilities)
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 17, 2018 23:19:51 GMT
Well, what we are doing is effectively homebrew brainstorming to target a desired outcome in our play experience. I come from a RPG background as the DM/GM, so this is normal.
The basic premise is that Mordikaar returns as a lesser warlock. He will have an echo of his previous iteration, but distinct. The narrative element would be the basic block. Did he escape fully in the flesh, or as a spirit?
Fluff can help guide that. His original backstory is that he willed himself out of the Void in the flesh. Is that the same as willing yourself out of the Devourer's gullet? To my mind, no. It seems harder, and him escaping in a diminished form as a lesser warlock makes sense.
If there was consensus he returns as a spirit, do we have a template to model? Mordikaar1 had an affinity for the Void, but he was definitely NOT a Void Spirit. Madness and malice consume them, and that wasn't Mordikaar. So how does he reflect as a spirit? I don't think giving him Void Spirit abilities is correct.
I mentioned previously that I like him as an incorporeal based model, but now narratively I'm thinking along a different tac. Maybe he is still trying to fully return in the flesh, and can only do it for moments? In that case, start building a concept that would be a two-mode back of the card. While incorporeal, he has a weak passive ability, but he can opt to become corporeal for a round and manifest stronger abilities. Perhaps he can only cast spells while corporeal, but they are good ones? Trade off is he has victim stats, so even transfers aren't a sure measure to protect him.
Building him takes a common set of assumptions, and I do like narrative. A shitty Agrimony with a passive and Fury that can only do cool active stuff at high risk sounds a dynamic, interesting model to me.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 18, 2018 0:14:01 GMT
I was actually considering having Mordikaar3 taking that step back in to being a full Warlock, and this idea of switching between being Incorporeal with one set of spells and Corporeal with another set of spells would fit that continuing story line. Basically taking what he knows of Caenn and the Void to become an arcane master of both.
But being a Lesser, I didn't want to take him too far in to a ghostly version of Kormac. As I said, there is only so far I'm willing to take him as a Lesser because he becomes too much at a certain point.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 25, 2018 21:46:10 GMT
As a side note, Mordikaar's lore seems to indicate that he was able to return his body to life before, but he lost his body when the void consumed him. If he returned to Caenn without securing his body from the Wurm, it would be roughly as a Void Spirit. Being able to retrieve his body would be one concern, and failing that, procure another one otherwise.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 26, 2018 22:51:56 GMT
Here's maybe a thought. Perhaps instead of being a lesser, he came back as the magically empowered leader of a character unit, similar to Alexia1. We know from fluff that Mortitheurgy can keep beings functional in a zombie-like state past death. Perhaps Mordikaar2 could do something similar with enemy souls. Something on the order of Blackbanes unit.
It's just a thought. He could retain spells and abilities without trying to balance fury. Also, I'm not seeing much benefit in slaving Despoiler to a lesser.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 27, 2018 5:43:49 GMT
Here's maybe a thought. Perhaps instead of being a lesser, he came back as the magically empowered leader of a character unit, similar to Alexia1. We know from fluff that Mortitheurgy can keep beings functional in a zombie-like state past death. Perhaps Mordikaar2 could do something similar with enemy souls. Something on the order of Blackbanes unit. It's just a thought. He could retain spells and abilities without trying to balance fury. Also, I'm not seeing much benefit in slaving Despoiler to a lesser. There is still Boozy's point of how does is body escape from the Void. Or does it escape at all? Mortitheurgy requires a body to work, as that is what it focuses on.
Mordikaar, along with Zaal, have been focused on other arts on spirit control and the Void, though they didn't stint too much on Mortitheurgy, and that should remain a focus for them. For Zaal, its in the sacral stones which empower and control the Immortals, while Mordikaar focuses on the souls which are not interred.
The other factor is that we really don't want to give Risen capabilities to a Warlock. It is FAR too powerful even if they are Void Spirits as well.
If Mordikaar returned as an Incorporeal Magic Solo who collected Souls and realized them the way that Alexia does and then create Void Spirits from those souls, then that would work, but it would be a huge downgrade for the character, in my opinion. Better to save the concept for another Character.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 27, 2018 15:20:13 GMT
Unless there's a member of the development team lurking on this board, we're all just spitting into the wind. So suggest away, but don't take things too seriously.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 27, 2018 17:17:54 GMT
Unless there's a member of the development team lurking on this board, we're all just spitting into the wind. So suggest away, but don't take things too seriously. Well, I put it on Privateer Press' Fan Creation forum after some discussion here. I presented ideas here first to round it out and conflicts/over-powered concepts I may not have known about before posting it there.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 27, 2018 17:43:50 GMT
As a side note, Mordikaar's lore seems to indicate that he was able to return his body to life before, but he lost his body when the void consumed him. If he returned to Caenn without securing his body from the Wurm, it would be roughly as a Void Spirit. Being able to retrieve his body would be one concern, and failing that, procure another one otherwise. I think there is a difference that is more than semantics between the Void and the Wurm. When Skorne die, their souls are described as falling into the Void, which corrupts and maddens them. Think of it as a toxic soup. The soul is intact, but corrupted. Mordikaar was able to resist the effects, and return to Caen. Being devoured is something entirely different. If his body and soul were both consumed, his return would necessitate a complete reconstitution of self from strength of mind alone. I'm an old Legacy of Kain diehard fan, so the appeal of an imperishable essence that flutters between Caen and the Void is real. I mentioned my taste preference as a model that shifts states, but as a lesser or as Skornedlover87 mentioned as an Alexia style character unit, is all the same. After posting this, I realize I need to do a Void Spirit conversion like Raziel. Maybe a Hexeris1 conversion as Kain to follow.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 27, 2018 17:53:59 GMT
As a side note, Mordikaar's lore seems to indicate that he was able to return his body to life before, but he lost his body when the void consumed him. If he returned to Caenn without securing his body from the Wurm, it would be roughly as a Void Spirit. Being able to retrieve his body would be one concern, and failing that, procure another one otherwise. I think there is a difference that is more than semantics between the Void and the Wurm. When Skorne die, their souls are described as falling into the Void, which corrupts and maddens them. Think of it as a toxic soup. The soul is intact, but corrupted. Mordikaar was able to resist the effects, and return to Caen. Being devoured is something entirely different. If his body and soul were both consumed, his return would necessitate a complete reconstitution of self from strength of mind alone. I'm an old Legacy of Kain diehard fan, so the appeal of an imperishable essence that flutters between Caen and the Void is real. I mentioned my taste preference as a model that shifts states, but as a lesser or as Skornedlover87 mentioned as an Alexia style character unit, is all the same. After posting this, I realize I need to do a Void Spirit conversion like Raziel. Maybe a Hexeris1 conversion as Kain to follow. Right. Any return on Mordikaar's part would require, at a minimum, that his soul was not devoured by the Wurm at the same time/soon after it engulfed his body. Let's face it, if any of the Skorne could manage this feat, it would be Mordikaar. But wasn't the Wurm banished back to the Void, meaning that wherever Mordikaar's soul was when he freed himself from the Wurm, it would have been in the Void, regardless?
Another interesting progression would be to have a student of Mordikaar's take certain steps to become that phaser of which you speak (and I think that it is a really good idea that could be explored by Skorne), especially if PP has zero intention of returning Mordikaar to Caenn in any form.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 27, 2018 18:07:26 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Wurm dwells in Urcaen, of which the Void has a relationship with, but is not synonymous. Urcaen is roughly equivalent to TSR's Outer Planes, the Umbra/Dreaming/Shadowlands, Happy Hunting Grounds, and all their other permutations. Somewhere Urcaen interfaces with the realm/s of the Infernals as well, but PP had always been cagey on that interplay.
A disciple of Mordikaar entering the narrative on a quest to restore him is interesting. Might be better suited for the IKRPG, but I do like Mordikaar's personal narrative.
Do you own a copy of the Skorne Empire Unleashed supplement?
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 27, 2018 19:21:34 GMT
Well, the Wurm, or at least an aspect of the Wurm, was brought in to Caenn from Urcaenn, and it theoretically can do so at any time, just that its attention was on Urcaenn and Menoth. One of the Circle's declared goal is to prevent actions which call the Wurm's attention to Caenn to consume/destroy it and them. Of course, the Tharn (and those with a close relationship with the Wurm) are more in to direct worship of the Wurm as a god.
The Wurm came in to Caenn through the Void "portal" that has followed Mordikaar around since he decided he didn't much care for the Void and became less dead. At least, Mordikaar thought it was a Void portal.
A narrative on a Mordikaar disciple trying to bring him back would be interesting, but I wasn't really going in that direction. If a Skorne is thought dead, they don't really try to do much to bring him back except through sacral stones. I was going on the concept that this student (rather than disciple) continued Mordikaar's Void study on their own path which led to them being able to shift to a Voidish state at will (more or less) leaving Mordikaar to return under his own devices or not.
I do not own any IKRPG books at this time. Wouldn't be against getting it, I just don't have the funds for that, nor the time to get in on someone's adventure. I'm lucky if I can get to the LGS once a quarter right now.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 27, 2018 19:41:51 GMT
Most of what you described is covered in depth in the IKRPG books. The point on the Wurm ingressing into Caen via a Void portal is interesting, since the Void's relationship to Urcaen is unclear. It may be a subrealm within it, or a connected one accessible and navigatable by parties to cross the boundary. Sort of like old TSR's Astral in relationship to the Outer Planes.
Since you are interested in lore and theorycraft, I'd recommend picking up the SKU book. Not only does it have relevant fluff information, but the mechanics also hint at the reasoning behind abilities at times. In the RPG, there is a spell that turns a model into a Void Spirit. I don't have my material in front of me, but I think it's on the Extoller spell list, not the Mortitheurge one. That may imply a boundary of abilities that mortitheurgy cannot cross.
It also hints at spells that could just be amazing. Beyond Death would be super fun in WMH, as would Overmind and many others. You should take a look if the opportunity presents.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 27, 2018 20:12:36 GMT
I don't think Mordikaar ever figured out what that portal was, but probably noted it had aspects of the Void. Of course, it could be that the Void is one of the things that separates Caenn and Urcaenn, with Skorne souls being unable to bridge the gap.
Alexia, the Betrayer of Corvis (Alternative History Skorne Warlock), does have a spell which converts a model to being a Void Spirit, by the way.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 27, 2018 20:22:59 GMT
I don't think Mordikaar ever figured out what that portal was, but probably noted it had aspects of the Void. Of course, it could be that the Void is one of the things that separates Caenn and Urcaenn, with Skorne souls being unable to bridge the gap. Yeah. In my mind, I speculate it in similar terms to the old TSR Astral. The Void is the layer through which souls pass into Urcaen, if they have a destination. Dhunians to Urcaen in general awaiting rebirth, Menites and Twins adherents to their particular realms. Those without deity patrons or particularly cursed (Tartarus) are stuck in the Void, which is tormenting and distorting to the soul. I once started a thread on the old PP forums about a Skorne/Cryxian academic exchange program for afterlife studies. Even got Seacat to chime in at one point. It's not clear in fluff, but I bet if you could get Scaverous, Mordikaar, Mortenebra,Goreshade, Hexeris, Zaal and a few others trading notes, there would be great leaps taken in the field.
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