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Post by reddust82 on Sept 1, 2018 11:48:17 GMT
So I was incredibly excited to find out that the Tharn CID will be addressing living beast point cost and pathfinder is great on our heavy beasts! But the only warlock that really tickles my fancy in Circle is Kaya 1 and 2. And she runs Call of the Wild, which is fine because lots of warbeasts is a cool concept. Except that, imo, the theme benefits suck. Particularly the amount of free points in models you can take. In Khador’s Armored Corp, I can easily and consistently take 18(!!) points of free models. In Call, it’s maybe 12 points. To me, that’s a huge difference especially when you consider what a 6 point suppression tanker is capable of.
Is there any way to make a Call list viable? It infuriates me that Kaya 2 is at 24 point warbeast points so she’ll never get that fourth free model. Really? Was that going to break the game? I’m sorry, this is probably the saltiest I’ve ever been in this game because (to me) a huge portion of Circle suffers the same fate and as the faction is being updated through cid, this issue is being ignored. Stone Warbeasts seem to be doing fine and MAYBE Tharn will be good after the CID, but what about the rest of the faction?
Ok, yes, now I’m flat out whining. Sorry. While I’m having a great time with khador, Kaya was my first love coming into hordes and it kills seeing how she’s just not competitive for silly reasons. And honestly, one change would make the difference: allow sentry stones and mannikins into all theme lists. We can have shifting stones, why not sentries?
Anyway, does anyone know how to make Kaya 2 viable? I really want to find a way. Sorry for the hot salty tears.
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Post by LoS Jaden on Sept 1, 2018 14:33:03 GMT
You don't need a bunch of extra points for her to work well. Pathfinder and cheaper beasts is huge for her. Something like this looks like crazy fun. conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0j3T4OmKmWmJmRc9fF5f4_mQ4_Circle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Devourer's Host !!! Your army contains CID entries. [Kaya 2] Kaya the Moonhunter [+24] - Feral Warpwolf [18] - Ghetorix [19] - Loki [19] - Warpwolf Stalker [17] - Tharn Blood Shaman [0(4)] Gallows Grove [2] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Shifting Stones [3] Tharn Bloodweavers [8] - Tharn Bloodweaver Haruspex [4] Tharn Bloodweavers [8]
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Post by reddust82 on Sept 1, 2018 18:10:38 GMT
Maybe I just need to get gud, but that looks like an insanely small number of models at 75 points...
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 1, 2018 18:55:11 GMT
I feel like call needs some goats. Consider Forced evolution on a shadowhorn as your front line. You've got a def 15(17 vs charges) dodging beast, kind of pillow fisted but strong enough to leave some dents and toss a heavy. Also incredibly cheap.
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Post by bloodhawk on Sept 1, 2018 19:38:47 GMT
I feel like call needs some goats. Consider Forced evolution on a shadowhorn as your front line. You've got a def 15(17 vs charges) dodging beast, kind of pillow fisted but strong enough to leave some dents and toss a heavy. Also incredibly cheap. I agree with this. Satyrs synergize really nicely with her. Although the list from charles looks excellent as well.
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Post by reddust82 on Sept 1, 2018 21:23:52 GMT
You don't need a bunch of extra points for her to work well. Pathfinder and cheaper beasts is huge for her. Something like this looks like crazy fun. conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0j3T4OmKmWmJmRc9fF5f4_mQ4_Circle Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Devourer's Host !!! Your army contains CID entries. [Kaya 2] Kaya the Moonhunter [+24] - Feral Warpwolf [18] - Ghetorix [19] - Loki [19] - Warpwolf Stalker [17] - Tharn Blood Shaman [0(4)] Gallows Grove [2] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Shifting Stones [3] Tharn Bloodweavers [8] - Tharn Bloodweaver Haruspex [4] Tharn Bloodweavers [8] Just out of curiosity, how do you get Loki in this list? He’s not bonded with Kaya and Decourer’s Host only allows ghetorix. What is it I don’t know?
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Post by fanbloodytastic on Sept 1, 2018 21:38:41 GMT
The current week of CID adds Loki to the theme.
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Post by LoS Jaden on Sept 1, 2018 21:47:56 GMT
The nature of playing a beast centric warlock is that you are necessarily going to be playing less models than other kinds of casters.
You could play her in Call of the Wild and have a few more heavies and a couple of free solos, but I think the Blood Shaman and access to Ghetorix and Loki is worth missing out on those free points. The double units of bloodweavers also give you some very reasonable scenario play.
I may actually playtest this list tonight, it looks a ton of fun.
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Post by reddust82 on Sept 1, 2018 21:56:09 GMT
The nature of playing a beast centric warlock is that you are necessarily going to be playing less models than other kinds of casters. You could play her in Call of the Wild and have a few more heavies and a couple of free solos, but I think the Blood Shaman and access to Ghetorix and Loki is worth missing out on those free points. The double units of bloodweavers also give you some very reasonable scenario play. I may actually playtest this list tonight, it looks a ton of fun. Would there be any utility going outside a theme to get access to sentry stones and mannikins? Then you can have Loki and Ghetorix and regenerating wood soup.
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Post by LoS Jaden on Sept 1, 2018 23:12:52 GMT
The nature of playing a beast centric warlock is that you are necessarily going to be playing less models than other kinds of casters. You could play her in Call of the Wild and have a few more heavies and a couple of free solos, but I think the Blood Shaman and access to Ghetorix and Loki is worth missing out on those free points. The double units of bloodweavers also give you some very reasonable scenario play. I may actually playtest this list tonight, it looks a ton of fun. Would there be any utility going outside a theme to get access to sentry stones and mannikins? Then you can have Loki and Ghetorix and regenerating wood soup. What for? Infantry clear can be done in basically every theme with something else (see Bloodweavers) and you lose both free points and a theme benefit at minimum. Sentry Stones are really good, and they're not in every theme for a reason. I don't think it's worth trying to play out of theme just for them though.
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Post by Forsaken on Sept 4, 2018 0:50:34 GMT
To OP: I'm a big fan of the Kaya's as well. Also one of the reasons I chose Circle.
Kaya1 is broken and in desperate need of a complete overhaul and has been since half way through mark II. She has 2 decent things on her cards and a whole lotta wtf.
Kaya2 is I think somewhat viable though. CotW is mostly where she wants to be but she can do pretty well in any of our living beast themes, especially with living beasts gaining native pathfinder and the beast point drops in CID. Shadowpack is very good for dealing with guns and forced evo is one of the best beast spells in the game. She is abysmally low on battlegroup points but that is essentially paying for Laris (who is pretty sweet). Try running her with 1-2 warpwolves and a bunch of lights/mediums then get into your opponent as quick as possible. A feral with forced evo can afford to warp speed and with hunter's mark or a channeled dogpile threatens a 14 inch alpha (16 if you manage both) which can then potentially teleport back or at def16 ignore some hits. Shadowhorns threat 12in with a leap or charge on hunter's mark target and can animus for free in CotW. Wild argus under forced evo is 3-5 pow 14s (16s with primal) or his combo bite is pow 18-20. Laris is also a decent forced evo target because at def17 he's a tricky target. Kaya's list is a super mobile, super aggressive glass canon that wants to cripple your opponent and then ask what he will do about it. Also, try this trick: run Laris hard at flank, spirit shift Kaya to him and feat, bring multiple heavies with her (after they do whatever they like in their activation).
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Post by onijet01 on Sept 4, 2018 2:35:52 GMT
So my question about this topic is the following.
Whats most important two things for a Kaya 2 list...
A- Leverage of Warbeast threats? B- A physically debilitating alpha strike? C- Opposing Warnoun assassination? D- Fury management for a fury 6 warlock? E- Protection for Kaya herself?
In my reguard I chose to answer the abouve question A and C. To that reguard the core models of my list are.
Kaya 2 - Laris - Gorax Rager - Razorwing Griphon ×2
Supports Gallows Grove ×4 Black Wayfarer ×2 Shifting Stones ×2
The total pakage so far is 22 points as not all of kaya 2 beast points have been used.
Now i need to look outside my list core and find beasts that pring cheap power.
In this vain i would select a sing warpwolf of 18points) My choice is the feral warpwolf and two narlhorn satyrs as a base heavy platoform.
That takes my list current to 59 points of and two free models. (Blackclad wayfarer) making me at 51 points.
Two shadowhorn Satyrs bring out my points to a 75 points.
So i would drop a single gallows grove and make a stone unit free. This lets me add a 3rd unit to my list as ferrow bone grinders. Craft talisman is a huge buff to my stratagy to legerage kayas feat and they bring both grevous wounds and inflict pain to manage my fury further
So in the end my list was.
Kaya 2 Laris Gorax Rager Razorwing Griphon ×2 Feral Warpwolf Gnarlhorn Satyr ×2 Shadowhorn Satyr ×2
Blackclad Wayfarer ×2 (both free) Gallows Grove ×3 Shifting Stone ×2 (one free) Ferrow Bone Grinders.
The idea is that on feat turn Kaya 2 can lanch heavy trade missles inti the opponents front lines from beyond her control area. The Beasts can gain free charges through many means as both Wayfarers have hunters mark and Kaya herself contains dogpile.
Interestingly the Gallows groves are m3nt to sit flags and channel dogpile. The two spells combined can grant a +4 inch charge.
Elusive is great to protect kaya from assassination, laris speeds her across the bord teliporting tricks, razorwing gryphons allow for a free animi that auto boosts power attacks so it has alot of triks even if it caps at p+s19 melee.
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Post by LoS Jaden on Sept 4, 2018 3:20:24 GMT
Kaya 2 Laris Gorax Rager Razorwing Griphon ×2 Feral Warpwolf Gnarlhorn Satyr ×2 Shadowhorn Satyr ×2 Blackclad Wayfarer ×2 (both free) Gallows Grove ×3 Shifting Stone ×2 (one free) Ferrow Bone Grinders. Yeah this isn't going to fight into anything that you want it to very well. It doesn't hit hard enough consistently enough, and you're spending points on models that I think are very subpar right now. Case in point, bone grinders, rager, and the groves is another Feral. She also wants a Stalker because she kills things very well with Flank, and Razorwings, while cute, don't really actually do much in reality. A second gnarlhorn is largely redundant as well, since counterslam is hard to impossible to use and you only need one for earth's blessing. Essentially I'm suggesting drop all the Groves, the Bone Grinders, the Razorwings, a Gnarlhorn, and the Rager and put in a Feral, Stalker, and Feralgeist. Then when CID drops you get a bunch of free points and can upgrade your solo boat a bit more.
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Post by onijet01 on Sept 4, 2018 6:50:42 GMT
Kaya 2 Laris Gorax Rager Razorwing Griphon ×2 Feral Warpwolf Gnarlhorn Satyr ×2 Shadowhorn Satyr ×2 Blackclad Wayfarer ×2 (both free) Gallows Grove ×3 Shifting Stone ×2 (one free) Ferrow Bone Grinders. Yeah this isn't going to fight into anything that you want it to very well. It doesn't hit hard enough consistently enough, and you're spending points on models that I think are very subpar right now. Case in point, bone grinders, rager, and the groves is another Feral. She also wants a Stalker because she kills things very well with Flank, and Razorwings, while cute, don't really actually do much in reality. A second gnarlhorn is largely redundant as well, since counterslam is hard to impossible to use and you only need one for earth's blessing. Essentially I'm suggesting drop all the Groves, the Bone Grinders, the Razorwings, a Gnarlhorn, and the Rager and put in a Feral, Stalker, and Feralgeist. Then when CID drops you get a bunch of free points and can upgrade your solo boat a bit more. Just like alot of circle players would but my question. Have you tried this yet in cid? (Thats what this list was made to test) A few changes from cid (version 1) All living heavy warbeasts gain pathfinder Ferral warpwolves drop to 16 points. Gnarlhorn satyr goes to str 12 points unchanged. Shadowhorn satyr gain new animus elusive and fists gain beat back. If not give it a go. It may take a round or two but two waves of charges is always amazing. Also the pitential to add 4 inches of threat to any models charge grants a huge threat range averaging 13 for the gnarlhorn. Shadowhorns can free charge jump 5 attack fully load up and teliport back to kaya on feat turn. Making them force potentially up to 29 inches away allowing kaya to gain some emergancy feild control on feat turn. Razorwings are the hardest hitting gryphon in the stable for infantry control. Furthermore it can trample over huge base obsticals to get assassination vecors you would not otherwise have. Notes. Only taking the gnarlhorn for counterslam is idiodic its a cheap warbeast that in cid can hit decently hard. Razorwing Gryphon is amazing at what it does, controlling infantry. Gallows are a solo to hold flags or port up and contest zones as channel targets they also let you more easily draw line of sight to get off dogpile I mean proxy it and give it a go, you may actually be suprised what the list can do. Of course stratagy is 75% the battle
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Post by redcathal on Sept 4, 2018 10:54:32 GMT
Do the groves just not die too easily without the right kind of terrain? And 6 points is a lot especially when you already have the nice mobile arc node of laris?
Same with the razorwings, no stealth means they'll get shot.
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