|
Post by mcdermott on Aug 31, 2018 17:19:27 GMT
What do you mean by this? Khador, Protectorate, and Legion all introduced new casters requiring model types to unlock their kit. Whats wrong with that in Circle? All 3 of those casters are very playable outside of their designated themes. I've made arguments elsewhere on the board that Khador's and Menoth's casters are actually much better outside their designated theme than they are within it. Iona loses the vast majority of what she does by playing outside of theme, rather than a single ability. Eh, Iona loses her elite cadre, and her feat becomes a "i'm a super solo for a turn" feat, her spell list is p-much good whether they're tharn or not, and potentially good with multiple beasts if not beast spam People really overestimate the value of S3 outside of AK tho. There are way better casters than her for every other theme.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Aug 31, 2018 17:55:08 GMT
All 3 of those casters are very playable outside of their designated themes. I've made arguments elsewhere on the board that Khador's and Menoth's casters are actually much better outside their designated theme than they are within it. Iona loses the vast majority of what she does by playing outside of theme, rather than a single ability. Eh, Iona loses her elite cadre, and her feat becomes a "i'm a super solo for a turn" feat, her spell list is p-much good whether they're tharn or not, and potentially good with multiple beasts if not beast spam People really overestimate the value of S3 outside of AK tho. There are way better casters than her for every other theme. Same can be said for Cyrenia and EI. However you're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater by taking those two out of their intended theme. Nobody is saying that we want Iona to supplant ... well ... nobody is good in wild hunt, but you should understand what I'm driving at here. Problem with wild hunt in general is circle's lack of damage buffs on our infantry centric casters (Baldur 1 being the exception). Seeing a good damage buff for warriors on a caster and then being told you can't play with that toy where you want to stings. Especially when doused with dose of bullshit as justification. If we were to see a caster independent damage buff for warriors that was wolfsworn specific I'd be over the moon but we're going to have to wait years before there's a wolfsworn release or update.
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Aug 31, 2018 18:45:58 GMT
Wolf sworn need more than a 1 turn feat to make them relevant.
Personally I'd rather have specialized focused and powerful in theme casters than casters watered down because they're intended to be functional in themes design hasn't even really begun modifying yet.
|
|
|
Post by bloodhawk on Aug 31, 2018 19:44:24 GMT
Wolf sworn need more than a 1 turn feat to make them relevant. Personally I'd rather have specialized focused and powerful in theme casters than casters watered down because they're intended to be functional in themes design hasn't even really begun modifying yet. I am so on the fence here it's ridiculous, lol. mcdermott, I completely agree with your thought process, although by your own logic Iona wouldn't break the Wolf Sworn today (tomorrow you never know, but it is doubtful). I am loving Iona as she is and would like her to stay the same as well rather than "open her up" and lose her excellent feat.
I do still understand the frustration with PP as they aren't being straight with us. If they want to be careful with the balance for future Circle themes then they should say so. Although I am not sure people would be satisfied with that answer as several previous CID's started out the same way. This is classic over promising and under delivering on PP's part. If they want to restrict casters to themes then they should do it across the board with that as a design philosophy. Splitting up the philosophy between factions is just asking for trouble as the odd man out will always be frustrated.
Personally, I wish that we could all move on to more important discussion points within CID as I think Iona working in crappy themes isn't a priority at this moment.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Aug 31, 2018 20:10:19 GMT
Personally, I wish that we could all move on to more important discussion points within CID as I think Iona working in crappy themes isn't a priority at this moment.
So what would you like to discuss then? Best way to move the conversation is to open up with something interesting.
|
|
|
Post by bloodhawk on Aug 31, 2018 20:25:13 GMT
Personally, I wish that we could all move on to more important discussion points within CID as I think Iona working in crappy themes isn't a priority at this moment.
So what would you like to discuss then? Best way to move the conversation is to open up with something interesting. Touche . The topics I have been thinking about most (prepping for a test game this weekend) are as follows.
1) Are wolf rider usable in the role that PP has outlined for them (flankers / solo hunters)? I will be testing them with Morv2, but my gut says that their rules are excellent. That being said, they are too expensive for the role they intend to fill. Their original price point seems more fitting, or perhaps even slightly cheaper than that.
2) Are Warpwolves / goats solid at their adjusted state, or could we use some other minor tweaks? In my mind, due to the proliferation of increased Mat warpwolves could potentially use a minor survivability buff. Perhaps Arm17 on the feral and make all Warpwolves 30 boxes. Right now Ghetorix has 30, Feral has 30, Stalker has 27, and Pureblood has 28. Let's just make them all consistent at Arm17 base 30 boxes. I think that actually helps out quite a bit. I would love the same with Satyrs as well honestly. The Cryx Slayer is 28 boxes at 10 points. Let's just give all Satyrs +2 boxes to 28 and I think they are solid as well (although riphorn is still left in the cold atm with his role).
3) Is Morv2 playable again with her updated rules? Or should she return the ability to transfer scales of fate damage to help increase her survivability against ranged assassination (being on a large base is tough when you sit on low life).
These are the first couple of things I will be testing.
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on Aug 31, 2018 20:25:33 GMT
Wolf sworn need more than a 1 turn feat to make them relevant. Personally I'd rather have specialized focused and powerful in theme casters than casters watered down because they're intended to be functional in themes design hasn't even really begun modifying yet. What exactly would have to change in Iona if they opened her up to all warrior models?
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Aug 31, 2018 20:51:28 GMT
Wolf sworn need more than a 1 turn feat to make them relevant. Personally I'd rather have specialized focused and powerful in theme casters than casters watered down because they're intended to be functional in themes design hasn't even really begun modifying yet. What exactly would have to change in Iona if they opened her up to all warrior models? Its more about forward looking IMO, they don't KNOW what changes they want or roles to make wolf sworn play so they went safe and narrowed her focus, when they have a clue what they want to do saying "Iona's feat now applies to all warrior models" is going to come across as a buff, vs "Iona's feat gets nerfed so that the base unit can get buffs that make it relevant with others" and having their community rage about nerfs
|
|
|
Post by reddust82 on Aug 31, 2018 21:22:12 GMT
I don’t have access to the CID forums... can anyone tell me the proposed cost reduction of the living warbeasts?
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on Aug 31, 2018 21:44:31 GMT
What exactly would have to change in Iona if they opened her up to all warrior models? Its more about forward looking IMO, they don't KNOW what changes they want or roles to make wolf sworn play so they went safe and narrowed her focus, when they have a clue what they want to do saying "Iona's feat now applies to all warrior models" is going to come across as a buff, vs "Iona's feat gets nerfed so that the base unit can get buffs that make it relevant with others" and having their community rage about nerfs So Iona is Tharn only so the wolfsworn in 2 years time can get a super caster independent caster buff? Maybe? Or are we getting a bunch of druid weapon masters? It has nothing to do with rules it is a concept thing. Thing is S3 is clearly a MOW caster but takes anything, Cyrenia is an exemplar but takes anything, Anamag is ogruns but takes anything, siege2 is trencher but takes anything.
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Aug 31, 2018 22:10:04 GMT
Except all those other options are outpaced by the other specialists outside of their theme. S3 outside of MoW is an illusion, there are literally half a dozen better casters in any other theme. Siege may not have more than desperate pace but again, better casters for any of the other themes in all of the tourney placements on discount games he appears outside of gravediggers one time, as a third place, in a team tournament, with teammates running cryx, grymkin, and irregulars. Cyrenia is new but she's not so much better than protectorates other infantry casters (vindictus), that you're going to see her outside of a theme that lets her use her battle plans on others, cause unlike malakov they don't do much for a single warcaster model. Anamag is...comparable at best with other infantry in legion, but outside of blighted ogrun triggering his free cast, Kallus1 and thags1 provide everything he does Hit boost, arm boost (pseudo arm boost in thags case) +2 melee damage/str. On top of which the kicker of anamag's strength boost is more or less completely useless with their non ogrun infantry. Feign death is niche as all get out without another means to apply tough. At least fire immune can give you the "shoot muh dudes in the back" tech.
Those models have the ILLUSION of taking anything, you aren't actually going to see some out of theme list taking the meta by storm, or even putting up a good showing, because they're all either outdone within the faction, or a key aspect of their kit has actually been kicked out from them. Iona just keeps it open and obvious.
|
|
|
Post by frumiousbandersnatch on Sept 1, 2018 4:00:31 GMT
I think the Storm Raptor still needs work. A bump in survivability or utility in some way. I want our huge based centerpiece models to be GOOD. I want this for the Wrath especially, but the Storm Raptor is the one we have to talk about.
What about the bird as suggested, but adding: Crackling Doom: once per game at any time during this model's activation if it did not run or charge choose 3 different models within 10 inches of this model and in its line of sight. Those models suffer a boostable pow 10 electrical damage roll.
I kind of like the idea of a minifeat type ability on a gargantuan. This is comparable to the Stormwall's pods, but without leaving a physical model on the table. Lets you scalpel out most solos and pesky UAs other than the tougher ones if they don't duck for cover. Could be useful for completely clearing out a zone too.
Or instead maybe make the current animus an always on passive ability and change the animus. Battering Winds: Cost 2, range self, models beginning their activation within 10" of this model and in its front ark cannot charge or slam this model.
Basically just polarity field with a limited range. Maybe you could just let the animus grant polarity field, but I wasn't sure if that would be too off the wall. The animus can still be dispelled. Infantry probably aren't bothering you much and heavies can still trample in. Making heavies sacrifice a lot to get to you lets your squishy bird stand a decent chance at surviving a round from a single heavy. Of course it can still be brought down by heavy shooting, too.
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Sept 1, 2018 4:47:59 GMT
Or Models within 5" targeted by ranged attacks have that attacks range reduced by 5"
Call it "high winds" or someting
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Sept 1, 2018 12:29:46 GMT
Or Models within 5" targeted by ranged attacks have that attacks range reduced by 5" Call it "high winds" or someting Combined with Kreuger 2 that would reduce a lot of shooting in the game down by 10". Not sure that's a route PP would be willing to go.
|
|
|
Post by bloodhawk on Sept 1, 2018 12:49:49 GMT
Or Models within 5" targeted by ranged attacks have that attacks range reduced by 5" Call it "high winds" or someting Combined with Kreuger 2 that would reduce a lot of shooting in the game down by 10". Not sure that's a route PP would be willing to go. What if SR just had the same ability as K2? It could be in command which would work since they have already decoupled the animus from his command range. That way no doubling up, and they could play with his command range as necessary.
|
|