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Post by harcos on Aug 17, 2018 16:52:34 GMT
The local gaming group has started a Journeyman league. In which I have decided to run Grymkin. Due to the rules on list building and weekly limitations. I would like to receive constructive criticism on my planned weekly builds. Because you have to keep all previous models used (only units can be adjusted for size), not all lists are the full 75 points. Theme, when allowed, is Dark Menagerie. privateerpress.com/organized-play/leagues/journeyman-league-rules  BOLD = New Italics = Change Week 1 shows the approved starter box, week 2-5 shows the additions and changes, week 6 shows final 75 point list. Week 1 - Starting Battle Group (0-points)-29 The Child +14 Cage Rager +9 Frightmare +6 Gorehound Week 2 – Battle Group (15-points)+15 Skin & Moans
Week 3 – Battle Group, Units, Solos, Theme (30-points)(3 free) +0 Crabbit
+0 Crabbit+8 Rattler
+0 Gremlin Swarm
+7 Dread Rots (unit of 6)
Week 4 - Battle Group, Units, Solos, Theme (45-points) (3 free)+12 Dread Rots (unit of 10)
+4 Glimmer Imp
+4 Lady Karianna Rose
Week 5 - Battle Group, Units, Solos, Battle Engine, Theme (60-points)(4 free)+8 Rattler
+0 Gremlin Swarm
+7 Dread Rots (unit of 6)
+13 Death Knell
Week 6 - Battle Group, Units, Solos, Battle Engine, Theme (75-points)(5 free)-29 The Child +14 Cage Rager +9 Frightmare +6 Gorehound +0 Crabbit +0 Crabbit +8 Rattler +8 Rattler +15 Skin & Moans +15 Skin & Moans +0 Gremlin Swarm +0 Gremlin Swarm +0 Gremlin Swarm
+7 Dread Rots (unit of 6) +4 Glimmer Imp +4 Lady Karianna Rose +13 Death Knell |
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Post by challenger on Aug 17, 2018 22:36:08 GMT
Okay so a disclaimer before i begin that this is all just my opinion, and that i come from things from the perspective of a competitive player.
First question you have to ask yourself is - Do you stick with Child from start to finish? I'd have a good think about it if i was you because all grymkin warlocks are amazing. But one stands above the crowd which is Dreamer. Of course, if you genuinely enjoy Child i'd say stick with her. The big advantage of Dreamer is her offensive buffing and her defensive abilities are both superior to The Child - Manifest Destiny really is an incredible spell
The other question you have to ask is "what kind of list do i want to run by the end of the league?" Inside Dark Menagerie you have a lot of flexibility to go for a super tough 5 heavy build, or scale it back a bit and go for lights. In your initial build you only had 3 heavies - i would strongly caution against anything less than four. You really need your workhorse models to be very tough.
Lets do a quick week by week rundown and why i personally would do something
Week 2
+Skin and Moans
This is a week i would 100% change. Skin and Moans are a very powerful warbeast, but they are not a good workhorse one. You have to think of them as specialised finishers. they require corpses, and they want your opponent to have run out of models that can reliably one round them. This skin and moans at ARM 16 is extremely vulnerable to death, and its situation does not improve until week 5. meaning i would avoid adding Skin and Moans for as long as possible and opt for. Cage Ragers are very strong heavies overall and are needed to take the brunt of the enemies offense in the early - mid game
Alternate Week 2
+Cage Rager
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Week 3
+Theme Force DM
+dread rots
+rattler
+gremlin (free)
+crabbit (free)
+crabbit (free)
Dread Rots are generally a model i don't think is very good in Dark Menagerie. The theory is that they, through their deaths or by killing models will provide corpses for the army. In your case, you are very unlikely to benefit until Week 5 when the Knell appears, and even then, dread rots are typically non ideal models because grymkin can usually source enough corpses even into 100% construct armies
My proposed week 3 for you would instead be:
Week 3
+Theme Force DM
+Gorehound [6pts]
+Rattler [8pts]
+Gremlin [free]
+Crabbit [free]
+Crabbit [free]
Why do i suggest this? because i am preparing to swap to The Dreamer. If you want to stick to Child you can pick something like Ratter/Rattler and not be too heavily effected
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Week 4
+12 dread rots
+Glimmer Imp
+lady k
So the glimmer imp is essentially a "Child Crutch" that dreamer doesn't need. reason being is dreamer is a native accuracy fixer. Lady Rose is a genuinely awesome model but just hard to fit in sometimes, thats the only reason she didn't make it into my proposed week 4 of:
Week 4
+Skin and Moans[15pts]
+Gremlin Swarm [free]
Its still a non ideal Skin and Moans, but now we have only one and 4 lights, 2 lessers and 2 heavies to hide it behind! including shield guards.
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Week 5
You fiddled this week with the dread rot cost again to fit an extra rattler in, personally i don't like Child's rattlers very much. Mat 6 is unimpressive, even with glimmer imp support
my week 5 recommendation is just
+Death Knell
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Week 6
Grymkin Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Dark Menagerie
[Dreamer 1] The Dreamer [+28]
- Cage Rager [14]
- Cage Rager [14]
- Crabbit [0(n/a)]
- Crabbit [0(n/a)]
- Crabbit [0(n/a)]
- Frightmare [9]
- Gorehound [6]
- Gorehound [6]
- Rattler [8]
- Skin & Moans [15]
- Skin & Moans [15]
Gremlin Swarm [0(3)]
Gremlin Swarm [0(3)]
Gremlin Swarm [3]
Death Knell [13]
You can sub a free crabbit out for a free gremlin swarm if your opponents are going light on guns. 2 crabbit builds are fairly typical. That gets 4 heavies, a dreamer rattler (!! awesome), some value lights. It should have game into basically anything because Dreamer is so insane
If you opt to stick with child, i'd recommend going potentially for 5 heavies instead of 3, with the ideal setup being 3x ragers and 2x skin and moans. Child's lack of accuracy buffs does make her sad though
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341 
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Post by doopsie on Aug 18, 2018 0:54:16 GMT
So I'm mostly going to agree with Challenger on this, save for 2 points:
1) I THINK if you swap out casters, you have to do so week 4. So switch to Dreamer then.
2) I would try to play with the numbers to drop the 2nd Gorehound and the paid-for Gremlin Swarm for a unit of Dread Rots.
a) they are really good at dying, which will fuel your eventual Death Knell
b) most people will be playing battlegroup-heavy. Battlegroup-heavy lists tend to not like a 10-man unit of weaponmasters.
c) Dread Rots can, and should, be used to block charge lanes to your very important heavies. This is their most important role.
d) If you swap to the Dreamer, her Trump Arcana is almost useless when playing pure battlegroup. It is REALLY good when somebody's trying to chew through a screening -unit of Dread Rots.
e) They are a fantastic trigger for the Shadow Arcana, which can swing the game heavily in your favor if done right (a free heavy? Placed right behind the triggering heavy that tried to get through my screen? That can benefit from Manifest Destiny? And max-out on Fury at no risk? YAY!), and you otherwise have very limited options.
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Post by challenger on Aug 18, 2018 8:24:43 GMT
So I'm mostly going to agree with Challenger on this, save for 2 points: 1) I THINK if you swap out casters, you have to do so week 4. So switch to Dreamer then. 2) I would try to play with the numbers to drop the 2nd Gorehound and the paid-for Gremlin Swarm for a unit of Dread Rots. a) they are really good at dying, which will fuel your eventual Death Knell b) most people will be playing battlegroup-heavy. Battlegroup-heavy lists tend to not like a 10-man unit of weaponmasters. c) Dread Rots can, and should, be used to block charge lanes to your very important heavies. This is their most important role. d) If you swap to the Dreamer, her Trump Arcana is almost useless when playing pure battlegroup. It is REALLY good when somebody's trying to chew through a screening -unit of Dread Rots. e) They are a fantastic trigger for the Shadow Arcana, which can swing the game heavily in your favor if done right (a free heavy? Placed right behind the triggering heavy that tried to get through my screen? That can benefit from Manifest Destiny? And max-out on Fury at no risk? YAY!), and you otherwise have very limited options. Ah yes, i should have made it clearer that dreamer is week 4, i said "preparing for her" in week 3 which is true, but i wasn't clear enough it was 4 good catch I will disagree on Rots though, but that is an agree to disagree thing. i find that Gorehounds are generally amazing triggers for Shadow just because they trigger off any (non chain striking) heavy in the game |
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Post by harcos on Aug 18, 2018 19:33:14 GMT
I have never played The Dreamer. I will play a few test rounds with her.
Thank you for the advice. Now to buy a few more cage ragers. =)
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 22, 2018 6:37:46 GMT
I especially agree with the second turn change. Since I'm not a specialist in Grymkin I can't say much, but as for the journymen league as a whole, there will not be many corpses on the field for you to amp them up to their magnificent 19/19. At most you'll have a min support unit running around or a single 10 man. This crutches you even more when you face off against Warmachine and all of their constructs. Corpse lists hate early journeyman, just like how range LOVES early journeyman (not a lot of shieldguards, less support, less LOS blockers)
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Aug 23, 2018 9:31:57 GMT
For the OP: how new are you to Grymkin? I ask because if you're new to the faction (very likely since it's a journeyman league), then I would strongly advise against switching to the Dreamer.
Grymkin are already a very complicated faction to pick up owing to the Arcana machanism and the trap-laying style of play they promote. The dreamer complicates this immensely with her crazy-complicated kit. She is obviously an amazing caster (see all the Grymkin tournament finishes with her as an example), but the number of choices you are forced to make each turn is breathtaking, and can be overwhelming. Consider a typical start-of-turn Dreamer checklist:
- How do I stay alive?
-- Strong enemy ranged assassination? Go Incorporeal
-- Low-impact friendly turn? Camp 3 FURY
-- Very strong assassination turn? Hide in artifice, hug crabbits (maybe hug a cage rager to prevent a critical spell)
- What parts of her kit am I spending FURY on? (typically only 2 out of these)
-- Hot-swapping Mirage
-- Abyssal Gate therat / accuracy extender
-- Manifest Destiny
-- Defensive goodness via Enfeeble
-- Hinder charge lanes with Artifice of Deviation
-- Deliver models by giving them cover in Artifice of Deviation
-- Heal damaged warbeast aspects
-- put enemy model(s) to sleep with gun
- Further kit considerations
-- If she's casting an offensive spell, how do I safely deliver it?
--- Can she make the pumpkin?
--- Can she get a cage rager in place with a corpse?
--- must she go incorporeal and cast it natively?
- What Phantasm(s) do I want to make?
-- Can I get the dreamer safely in CTRL of a suitable target?
-- What can the phantasm(s) do for me after creation this turn?
-- Can she be close enough to relevant models to trigger CMD-based arcana (like the shadow or shroud, both of which she likes)
This is before the normal difficulties of dealing with Arcana which are already quite challenging to get used to.
If you're new to the faction, just play the Child all the way through. She is fun, she has a surprising amount of depth, she is pretty damned good on the table, and you have plenty of time after the journeyman league to sort your way through the dreamer.
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Post by harcos on Aug 23, 2018 20:01:34 GMT
Mainly played Heritic and Old Witch. I never played much of the other warlocks. (To be honest, my skill with the game are mediocre.)
I am thinking of switching to Dreamer. While far from a point and shoot tool box, I believe that practicing it in a escalating points league would be beneficial.
My opponents are keenly aware of the Shadow Arcana. Only got it off once.
Here is my progress if interested. Hopefully I do not disappoint.
So far...
Week 1
Loss - Barnabus knock down feat, killed my battlegroup.
Win - Caster kill, opponent underestimated Abuse range increase.
Win - battlegroup kill, opponent rolled poorly on his damage, everything survived for full retaliation.
Week 2 (added Cage Rager)
Win - Caster kill. Got stupid lucky on dice. Should have lost.
Win - Caster kill. Opponent felt sorry and let me win (I was out ranged, out gunned and out maneuvered by merc jacks).
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 24, 2018 2:45:23 GMT
Child is mainly for corpse lists, which dampens her early on. King is good at breaking armor but requires more skill. The Wanderer and Dreamer would probably be better for a journeyman, as both have a tool kit that can make your models hard as hell to hit, let alone kill, with very little point cost. Dreamer also has a mat fixer, which gives her an umph if you are finding it hard to hit. The Wanderer, however, plays our lights like a beast, as he can cast conceal in a 12 inch radius around himself, activating prowl  |
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Post by harcos on Sept 3, 2018 17:14:32 GMT
Week 4 update. Switched to Dreamer. Will take some time to get used to her tool box. Manifest Destiny has caused a Barnabas2 player to rage quit turn 2...
(Honestly thought, and told my opponent, that I overextended and he was in a great position to kill half my army with his warlock alone. Mat 8 and Dark Shroud with two of my heavies right next to each other.)
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Sept 4, 2018 19:49:44 GMT
Thank you for sharing your experiences!
And I totally understand both your and your opponent's views. Dreamer with Manifest can be VERY tilting, and also can easily lead to overextending.
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