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Post by macmac on Aug 12, 2018 0:43:24 GMT
Heey. I just got my ass handed to me by a friend of mine playing Cephalyx. He played Exulon with wardens, subduers and mindbender drudges. He just started with them and we felt like starting with 25pts and I just could not manage to do anything, at all. He moved stuff around, dragged my heavies out and killed everything of value and I felt helpless for the first time in the short time I´ve been playing WMH. Any suggestions here? It sucks, I hate them. Thanks.
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tomw
Junior Strategist
Posts: 128
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Cephalyx
Aug 12, 2018 4:47:48 GMT
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Post by tomw on Aug 12, 2018 4:47:48 GMT
I’ve never played the matchup, so wouldn’t want to give list advice, but if it’s specifically the feat and telekenesis that are giving you problems, trolls have answers.
The earthborn and bouncer have the earth’s blessing animus, which prevents the push from the feat (although not the place from telekenesis). The battle engines are also immune to pushes, but not places. All of the gargantuans can ignore both pushes and places. If you’re playing Power if Dhunia, Mulg can use arcane vortex to stop telekenesis.
This is totally untested, but my gut says kolgrima can handle this. Between the earth’s blessing animus and owl’s wisdom, she can prevent a lot of his tricks, and winter’s tide will ruin drudges. Plus, a glacier king is a solid choice with her, if you want to go down that route.
Alternatively, grim1 with battle engines might be good. His feat is devestating against melee focused lists, and if you take battle engines, they can ignore thexus’ feat, and put out a lot of damage against squishy infantry. Hope this helps!
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Cephalyx
Aug 12, 2018 7:04:00 GMT
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Post by onijet01 on Aug 12, 2018 7:04:00 GMT
Okay so first the list requires heavy use of pushes, placement and slams.
Two high value warbeasts into the list are Bouncers and Earthborns. Earthblessing makes them immune to warden slams, Exolons feat and the one monstrosities gun.
The only problem then comes in yhe form of damage output, to that reguard i recommend a mountain king
Casters are iffy but id go madrak 3 for protective aura vs stones.
Sonething like Madrak 3 Earthborn Earthborn Mauler Bouncer
Free Whelps Trolkin ruinbeer
List has two earthblessing sheild guards for the mauler and 3 heavies that 2 make great use of rAge and earth blessing.
Just an ides
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Cephalyx
Aug 12, 2018 14:19:35 GMT
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 12, 2018 14:19:35 GMT
If he is playing with drudges, play a caster who can scalple out the Stupid UA’s and buff solos (agitators?)
Koldgrannie, Grim1/2, Grissel2, Jarl all have cool tech into the matchup for infantry hate and control.
For just raw Face Beating, Madrack2 in BoH should gear check the list. Fenblades or Long riders on Feat Turn should be murdering all the drudges (make sure you don’t RFP so you can still overtake/cleave/berserk but you still ignore tough regardless of if you RFP or not)
you could also play pretty much anyone in Storm of the north with Fire eaters, Hauler, or Raiders and watch his army melt.
I think Band of heroes is the way to go thoug, because you literally just melt the drudges like paper. Especially with fenblades and long riders who will get 2 attacks that are accurate and ignore tough.
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Cephalyx
Aug 12, 2018 23:34:13 GMT
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Post by onijet01 on Aug 12, 2018 23:34:13 GMT
If he is playing with drudges, play a caster who can scalple out the Stupid UA’s and buff solos (agitators?) Koldgrannie, Grim1/2, Grissel2, Jarl all have cool tech into the matchup for infantry hate and control. For just raw Face Beating, Madrack2 in BoH should gear check the list. Fenblades or Long riders on Feat Turn should be murdering all the drudges (make sure you don’t RFP so you can still overtake/cleave/berserk but you still ignore tough regardless of if you RFP or not) you could also play pretty much anyone in Storm of the north with Fire eaters, Hauler, or Raiders and watch his army melt. I think Band of heroes is the way to go thoug, because you literally just melt the drudges like paper. Especially with fenblades and long riders who will get 2 attacks that are accurate and ignore tough. Could work but now how the list he is playing is. From reading into the original post i feel the list being run is. Thanks to the key terms "... with Wardens, Subduers, and Mindbender Drudges..." Exulon -warden -warden -subduer -subduer Mindbender and drudges (max) Is a 24/25pt army it is also capable of doing the pulling apart of multiple models to kill them as he discribed in the original post. Im convinced this is the list being ran as between feat, tk, and drag guns on the subduers you can move models up to 10 inches from their start to rip them apart. The druges play your assasination and screen angles as they easily snipe out solos, supports or blast units off the board with magical attacks. In a 25 point game its a cruel list and plays perfect as most lists can not contend with what it brings. No solos for buffing damage as the list literally guts an opponent on feat turn. Thus my list abouve and advice to simply use a bare minimum suport so madrak 3.
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Cephalyx
Aug 13, 2018 0:39:11 GMT
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 13, 2018 0:39:11 GMT
Well, fenblades would still help a lot there, because they beat Drudges every time.
25 points is tough though, because stone takes up a big chunk of your points.
I really recomemd you guys bump up to 50 points. If he’s bringing 4 Heavies plus drudges at 25, that’s gonna be really really hard to deal with for trolls in particular.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Cephalyx
Aug 13, 2018 3:50:41 GMT
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Post by mazog on Aug 13, 2018 3:50:41 GMT
I second Macdaddy's recommendation to build up your point levels fast. 9-12 points of stone is a huge burden at low point games. That being said, it looks like knockdown is your opponents big trick. I recommend Madrak1 to deny it. Yes, he can still pull you and TK you, but he can't automatically hit you which will matter a lot to mat 5 / rat 4 monstrosities. Here's a sample list:
War Room Army
Trollblood - New Army
Theme: Band of Heroes 1 / 1 Free Cards 25 / 25 Army
Madrak Ironhide, Thornwood Chieftain - WB: +29 - Night Troll - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Night Troll - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15)
Trollkin Fennblades - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer - Officer & Drummer: 0 Trollkin Warders - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10
THEME: Band of Heroes
Night trolls are stealthy and take Rage exceptionally well. Intersperse the warders among and behind the fennblades, and shield guard as needed. Drudges should be an easy way to trigger blood boon, but absolutely do not let a turn end without getting Even Ground. Oh, and keep the Mauler back until you trade Night Trolls for heavies.
Don't forget about the Hard rule the Fennblades have! This one of the few cases where it is likely to come up!
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Cephalyx
Aug 13, 2018 6:35:35 GMT
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Post by onijet01 on Aug 13, 2018 6:35:35 GMT
I second Macdaddy's recommendation to build up your point levels fast. 9-12 points of stone is a huge burden at low point games. That being said, it looks like knockdown is your opponents big trick. I recommend Madrak1 to deny it. Yes, he can still pull you and TK you, but he can't automatically hit you which will matter a lot to mat 5 / rat 4 monstrosities. Here's a sample list: War Room Army Trollblood - New Army Theme: Band of Heroes 1 / 1 Free Cards 25 / 25 Army Madrak Ironhide, Thornwood Chieftain - WB: +29 - Night Troll - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Night Troll - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) Trollkin Fennblades - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer - Officer & Drummer: 0 Trollkin Warders - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 THEME: Band of Heroes Night trolls are stealthy and take Rage exceptionally well. Intersperse the warders among and behind the fennblades, and shield guard as needed. Drudges should be an easy way to trigger blood boon, but absolutely do not let a turn end without getting Even Ground. Oh, and keep the Mauler back until you trade Night Trolls for heavies. Don't forget about the Hard rule the Fennblades have! This one of the few cases where it is likely to come up! I thought the same as I initially went madrak 1 but then i relized, he can not fight Exulon as he is out tecked. Def is not the issue, knockdown is not the issue. Exulons trick are the issue at hand not his monstrosities. Your list abouve has 3 fatal flaws. 1. Exulon can arc through his monstrosities. At focus 8 he can trivially hit def 14 models needing 6. Next he has 3 very powerful control spells you need to deal with Telekanisis, Rampager, Influence. All 3 spells are detrimental to Madrak 1. Breing able to male your beasts simply walk out of madrak 1 control makes them all but useless if they have any fury at all. Then thats not the option of setting up Madrak to be killed by his own beasts. Tk madrak into a spot ne needs or feat push him. Use Rampager on a night troll attack madraks bavk arc. And so on. There is a reason i recomended playing Madrak 3 as a core warlock because he brings a sh3ild guard to negate one of Exulons greatest spells vs hordes. 2. With 4 heavies you can no trade up at all. Def 14 is good but arm 18 vs his heavies means your at a losing battle. Mauler may kill one but night trolls just dont work well enough. Fenblades are good but you short change yourself with them and only give more bonus to yiur opponent. Tough is good but its only a 34% chance and charging drudges with Exulons feat always outhreat your fenblades. Madrak 1 is just too weak a caster vs Exulon and no theme can grant you enough work at 25 points except for power of duina
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Post by grabsnikk on Aug 13, 2018 7:47:43 GMT
Hate to burst your bubble but Shield Guard does absolutely nothing to stop offensive spells.
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ravenfire
Junior Strategist
Me Mulg me SMASSSSSHHHH
Posts: 244
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Post by ravenfire on Aug 13, 2018 8:07:15 GMT
Personally in such a situation it is better to prevent your army from being seen. Kolgrima sounds like a good way to start of with her cloud wall unless this caster can see through them ? A earthborn or bouncer to prevent the TK of the caster and her own ability to make her spell immumue.
Add a mauler to top off the beat points
Then double bears and a fell caller and some other free solo.
You miss out on the stone, but at this level it is just too many support points.
Try and get the alpha
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Cephalyx
Aug 13, 2018 11:21:02 GMT
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Post by mazog on Aug 13, 2018 11:21:02 GMT
Personally in such a situation it is better to prevent your army from being seen. Kolgrima sounds like a good way to start of with her cloud wall unless this caster can see through them ? A earthborn or bouncer to prevent the TK of the caster and her own ability to make her spell immumue. Add a mauler to top off the beat points Then double bears and a fell caller and some other free solo. You miss out on the stone, but at this level it is just too many support points. Try and get the alpha I started there and then went to M1, figuring that the no charge feat might do the job. Owls wisdom, though, is a definite thought. Another sad bubble-bursting, Earth's Blessing does nothing about places like TK. Mulg could arcane vortex it, but I don't think we can afford him in this game, even with her buffs. Onijet, you make some good points, but TK only cancels the defense buff and his working models aren't accurate, except for the buffed grudges. The warders in particular are, I think, al mistake, since he only has two guns, even if they do have devastating effects. This is theorynachine for me, but I think you may be underestimating the night troll. It has stealth natively, and at pow 12 doesn't threaten friendly stuff too much, but with 5 PS 15s and a PS 14, seem likely to mess up the monstrosity pretty well. If you get silly you might give guided hand to try for a critically paralyze, but that seems silly. The warders could be a min Stone and elder to add one to all those PS, at which point they trade up several points, maybe.
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ravenfire
Junior Strategist
Me Mulg me SMASSSSSHHHH
Posts: 244
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Post by ravenfire on Aug 13, 2018 11:38:45 GMT
Personally in such a situation it is better to prevent your army from being seen. Kolgrima sounds like a good way to start of with her cloud wall unless this caster can see through them ? A earthborn or bouncer to prevent the TK of the caster and her own ability to make her spell immumue. Add a mauler to top off the beat points Then double bears and a fell caller and some other free solo. You miss out on the stone, but at this level it is just too many support points. Try and get the alpha I started there and then went to M1, figuring that the no charge feat might do the job. Owls wisdom, though, is a definite thought. Another sad bubble-bursting, Earth's Blessing does nothing about places like TK. Mulg could arcane vortex it, but I don't think we can afford him in this game, even with her buffs. Onijet, you make some good points, but TK only cancels the defense buff and his working models aren't accurate, except for the buffed grudges. The warders in particular are, I think, al mistake, since he only has two guns, even if they do have devastating effects. This is theorynachine for me, but I think you may be underestimating the night troll. It has stealth natively, and at pow 12 doesn't threaten friendly stuff too much, but with 5 PS 15s and a PS 14, seem likely to mess up the monstrosity pretty well. If you get silly you might give guided hand to try for a critically paralyze, but that seems silly. The warders could be a min Stone and elder to add one to all those PS, at which point they trade up several points, maybe. Again something learned. Do not see TK much when I play. But Owls wisdom should put a stop to the TK of kolgrima. And clouds are usefull. what you can not see you can not TK
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Cephalyx
Aug 13, 2018 11:42:29 GMT
via mobile
Post by onijet01 on Aug 13, 2018 11:42:29 GMT
Fair points but all of Exulons army but him have eyeless sight and if he arcs the channels through a monstrosity he uses van eadily get within 5 for stealth.
The night troll may have those attavks but in all honesty it will never be able to use them all. Unless it survives the alpha (and with out a doubt Exulon will out alpha your entire army.
Surefoots great bun on a fury 5 madrak its bad. With just his feat exulon can put a 4 inch range between every model and madrak 1. Tk can further force the distance game up to 8 inches from madrak.
And targets within exulons cmd his monstrosities can charge for free.
I know i sound negetive but i simply want to help and let players know of exulons stupid control abilities..
(Ive eaten to many losses to him and recently started going over my records to learn to pick him apart)
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Cephalyx
Aug 13, 2018 13:12:45 GMT
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Post by mazog on Aug 13, 2018 13:12:45 GMT
Wow. My local Merc player dropped out before Mark III, and was not into Cephalyx anyways, but I see what you mean, this guy is brutal. And it gets worse, arcing through models with eyeless sight will negate stealth. Thank you for persisting in the discussion. Why has no one brought up Hoarluk3? It seems like implacability solves all but the rampager problem, but admonition could even help with that. Or Kings, which solve everything, if only by not leaving anything friendly in their melee range? I am brainstorming at this point.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 13, 2018 13:43:53 GMT
yeah Doomy3 is awesome for stopping TKs plus he's great into lots of things. I only stopped playing him due to Grymkin shutting him down pretty hard.
or a beast brick with Mulg who can protect all heavies with correct placement. The best casters for a beast brick at the moment are Borka2 or Grim1 if u want to answer other matchups as well.
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