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Post by maxtermynd on Jul 10, 2018 15:23:05 GMT
Hi, I'm Max, and I like high threat ranges.
*Hi Max*
The problem is... I also like Khador jacks and Man-o-War. They're the models that pulled me into Warmachine in the first place, and I've put them on the table every so often, even in the depths of Mk II. The problem is for most of my Warmachine career I've been running with the Retribution (Rahn and Issyria in particular), which has gotten me used to getting the alpha off and not getting hit in return.
Now that Armored Corps is out, I really want to give the Man-o-War a go. And while I've seen some success with Irusk2 and Kozlov, I'm still pretty sure that I'm doing this whole constantly-being-out-threated thing wrong. I'm either trying to stay out of threat with my Shocktroopers for as long as possible (which means that I can't charge them or don't get into relevant scenario positions), or seemingly throwing them away to absorb the alpha so my Demo Corps can mop up (hopefully- MAT 7 isn't all that it's cracked up to be). Occasionally I can pull off some tricks with Irusk2, but it seems like everyone has pathfinder nowadays.
So... how do YOU use Shocktroopers, or otherwise account for low threat ranges in Khador? I know that there are casters that can push our threat range up, but I'm curious about working with those that don't.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jul 10, 2018 15:45:36 GMT
So if you wan't to focus on casters that don't do anything with increasing speed (V2, S2, Kozlov, for jacks I2/1, karchev, Strak1, V1, Sorscha1, ow1, ow2, b3/b2, Sorsch3, Hark)) I think you have butcher1 and zerkova1/2? Otherwise our casters all have atleast 2" speed buff for either infantry or jacks, sometimes way more and Zerkova plays the cloud wall game.
Butcher 1 is your iconinc low speed hard hitter. And the key is trading. Put a few of your models in charge range of some of their models, force them to charge you. Beserkers are great here under B1, hit hard enough to be a significant threat, cheap enought to not worry about losing. Then counter attack with very high output and begin trading on the up. It's a very hard game to play and requires good placement of models.
Otherwise most of our jacks threat 10" otherwise and with S0 on the rise, most likely 12". MOW threaten 11" with kovnik, 13" with kozlov, 14" witg V2.
Shock troopers in theory lead the front absorbing shooting and then charging in do jam or taking the charge themselves. Allowing the rest of the army to follow up and do the killing.
Bombadiers, the battle engines, and victor are your super threat range models. Putting pressure on the enemy with their 16-24" threat range.
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Post by maxtermynd on Jul 10, 2018 15:57:45 GMT
So if you wan't to focus on casters that don't do anything with increasing speed (V2, S2, Kozlov, for jacks I2/1, karchev, Strak1, V1, Sorscha1, ow1, ow2, b3/b2, Sorsch3, Hark)) I think you have butcher1 and zerkova1/2? Otherwise our casters all have atleast 2" speed buff for either infantry or jacks, sometimes way more and Zerkova plays the cloud wall game. Butcher 1 is your iconinc low speed hard hitter. And the key is trading. Put a few of your models in charge range of some of their models, force them to charge you. Beserkers are great here under B1, hit hard enough to be a significant threat, cheap enought to not worry about losing. Then counter attack with very high output and begin trading on the up. It's a very hard game to play and requires good placement of models. Otherwise most of our jacks threat 10" otherwise and with S0 on the rise, most likely 12". MOW threaten 11" with kovnik, 13" with kozlov, 14" witg V2. Shock troopers in theory lead the front absorbing shooting and then charging in do jam or taking the charge themselves. Allowing the rest of the army to follow up and do the killing. Bombadiers, the battle engines, and victor are your super threat range models. Putting pressure on the enemy with their 16-24" threat range. I'm not really counting the +2" threat on SPD 4 models to be a threat increase, as most things in the game (or at least in my meta) will threat at least 10". Coming from my Ret privilege side threats start at 11" and routinely are in the 13" or 15" range, and we're hardly alone in that. Karchev, Strakov1, and in certain matchups Zerkova1 will be able to get around this limitation, but basically everyone else is on the slow side or barely comes up to parity. I think part of my problem is not understanding when it's ok to throw my Shocktroopers/ a sacrificial jack away on a charge. I can tell that it's useful and really helps jam things up, but it's become so ingrained in me that charging shocktroopers/putting a heavy in charge range of someone else's heavy = dead models that I just don't do it. Plus they rarely hit hard enough to make it worth slamming them into a heavy. Thoughts?
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 10, 2018 16:37:30 GMT
You use Irusk2/Kozlov feat to alpha people. If you can't you shoot things that threaten mows. Don't forget shocks shoot farther than they charge. Don't forget Tankers/Conquest laying down damaging templates. If you can't you place 2 shieldwalled sacrifical contesting dudes in charge range and counter punch next turn. If it's easy for them to remove 2 dudes without comitting heavies/big units you put more dudes and counterpunch with other unit/jacks. Straight up relying on tanking is bad idea unless you're arm 23 with IF. Easy way to get arm 23 is taking a Devastator, you can chuck him into most threatening direction while shocks go tank somewhere easier.
Personally I play V2 in melee mow list specifically so I can alpha people. Kozlov and Strakhov2 can do that too.
With other caster I would take bombardiers to at least shoot opponent before he charges me and then position shocks in front of bombers to protect them.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jul 10, 2018 16:55:32 GMT
Khador has a couple things we do to mitigate long melee threats, without even factoring in our warcasters.
The most important of these, in my opinion, is choosing how to receive enemy charges. Using your ret models as an example, most of those 11" threat jacks are only threatening 11" on a single weapon: the smaller blade is a 1" reach and only threatens 10". So if I positioned my warjack at 10.1" from yours, you'd lose out on an entire attack against me. Also, forcing your opponent to charge you will often make them lose an attack (spending a focus/forcing a fury to charge) which is a good thing. Crunch the numbers to make sure it's likely you'll survive, bring mechaniks, and counter-punch. Placing your warjack behind on obstacle/obstruction puts his defense up to 12 in melee, which will often yield a missed attack when the enemy comes in on him.
The second thing we have going for us is some surprisingly long gun ranges: we have the single longest gun in the game (Victor), and it's fairly closely followed up by things like Conquest, Behemoth, Rifle Corps, etc. My personal favourite is the Decimator: his 10" gun seems short until you factor in Beat Back. Beat Back forces the enemy to commit further into zones (or risk being pushed out), which shortens the distance between them and your front line. Used correctly, this effectively increases the threat range of our entire army.
The third thing we have going for us is how cheaply we can get models on the field. For 3 points we can get 4 mechaniks, and with their field allowance of 3 that's a total of 12 for 9 points. Winter Guard Infantry can be bought at 10 for 10, and have fairly easy access to tough. In Jaws we can get kossites at 11 for 10, or 7 for 6, and they have def 13 and Prowl. Putting a bunch of bodies in front of your warjacks forces a larger commitment from the enemy to actually get to them.
We have a fair bit of access to stationary, knockdown, etc which forces the enemy to shake the effect, which in turn lowers their damage output when they come in.
We have decent access to rough terrain, which forces the enemy to invest in pathfinder. Making a hordes player Rush his model prevents him from putting Rage on it. There are a fair bit of warmachine armies that lack pathfinder for their heavies altogether.
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Post by maxtermynd on Jul 10, 2018 19:04:25 GMT
Thanks for the advice gents! I think part of the problem is my current list design isn't taking mechanics/anti jack shooting into consideration, and that I just don't put a priority on chip damage. I might try swapping out the Assault Chariot for a Slam Chariot and see if that helps matters, plus look for more opportunities for Shockies to charge/Demos to be closer to the front.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 10, 2018 22:57:46 GMT
Also, forcing your opponent to charge you will often make them lose an attack (spending a focus/forcing a fury to charge)...... There is something very wise in here that I hadn't spent a ton of time thinking about (bad player that I am) An advantage of someone like Sorscha1 - with proper positioning, is that you can force your opponent to spend a focus/fury shaking....and hopefully another charging. There are SOME things that can one round a Khador jack with just initials and maybe 1 or 2 buys but not THAT much.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 11, 2018 4:30:04 GMT
Okay, so the answer is you position OUTSIDE of their threat range (unless you need to contest). You force them to engage with scary shooting and by holding scenario elements.
Of course this isn't always possible, so you need to learn to piece trade as well.
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Post by borderprince on Jul 11, 2018 6:21:03 GMT
Also, forcing your opponent to charge you will often make them lose an attack (spending a focus/forcing a fury to charge)...... There is something very wise in here that I hadn't spent a ton of time thinking about (bad player that I am) An advantage of someone like Sorscha1 - with proper positioning, is that you can force your opponent to spend a focus/fury shaking....and hopefully another charging. There are SOME things that can one round a Khador jack with just initials and maybe 1 or 2 buys but not THAT much. All true. And worth flipping around - if forcing charges reduces damage taken, getting charges for free increases damage caused. From the Khador perspective, it means it can be worth thinking of Boundless Charge as a damage buff and using it even when you don't need the extra distance or pathfinder.
A free charge can often = 1 extra attack. And with a Juggernaut or other heavy hitter, an extra attack is a considerable amount of extra damage (often equivalent to, or better than, about a +2 on each of the three attacks you would have without a free charge). It's one reason Ruin is so powerful a piece.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jul 11, 2018 13:15:12 GMT
To boil that down, a free charge is a walk-in +1D6 of damage
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Post by maxtermynd on Jul 11, 2018 19:05:51 GMT
Also, forcing your opponent to charge you will often make them lose an attack (spending a focus/forcing a fury to charge)...... There is something very wise in here that I hadn't spent a ton of time thinking about (bad player that I am) An advantage of someone like Sorscha1 - with proper positioning, is that you can force your opponent to spend a focus/fury shaking....and hopefully another charging. There are SOME things that can one round a Khador jack with just initials and maybe 1 or 2 buys but not THAT much. And this is also why I'm gathering that including mechanics is a good thing, especially for Khador. As if it doesn't kill your cortex you can repair up and get ready to hit back.
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chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
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Post by chuggyg on Jul 11, 2018 19:32:54 GMT
Even if they do crack your cortex, a pair of forge seers will get you back up to 2 focus. Not ideal and horribly inefficient, but the option is there.
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