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Post by dicebedamned on Apr 12, 2017 21:07:21 GMT
I manage to get 2-4 hours of painting/hobby in a week, plus one game night. I too have a (nearly) wife, job etc...
One of the things I think helps me a lot, is I spend my lunch times doing my learning. I spend most lunch times at work watching battle reports, reading battlecollege.org on my mates' casters and reading these forums. This allows me to utilise the small amount of hobby time I do get effectively.
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Post by GumbaFish on Apr 12, 2017 21:15:12 GMT
I've found that since becoming a more proper adult I too have much less hobby time than I used to. I try to focus on smaller chunks of hobby time of 30-60 min a few nights a week to just slowly plod away on whatever I am working on. It isn't as satisfying as devoting huge chunks of time but it does add up and means I don't ignore my significant other or responsibilities. In all honesty though, I find at any given instant I only have enough free time to either play or paint. So if I've played a game that week I usually haven't painted anything and vice versa.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Apr 12, 2017 23:58:50 GMT
Some great advice out there, thank you all. A few follow ups: -Someone suggested copying the list of my regular opponents and studying those lists specifically. I like this idea in theory. In practice, however, should I be writing down their models while we are playing? This doesn't seem awful, but if there is an easier methodology, I would like to know. -Setting up a dedicated work space! Yes, this is great. I was wondering how I could get a quick paint session in when it takes me 10 minutes to get set up! -Where are the best resources for learning about how to paint effectively? Is it the PP videos? Is there a channel on youtube you have found really helpful? -I do like podcasts, so I will try this. The part I struggle with right now is I get lost easily because my knowledge of the game and the models is so limited currently. Thanks again all, this has been a great read for me so far! Copying lists - I really dislike this. Not out of any pride or judgement, but just tat I don't think its very helpful. When a top player puts together a list, it's built with a particular playstyle in mind. If you don't play the same way, or understand how it is supposed to fit together, it will simply fall apart. Instead, what I recommend you learn is particular modules that you may like to include in your preferred loadouts. This will usually become apparent after seeing a batrep or two and seeing some interactions that you like. Dedicated workspace - absolutely. I was going to suggest this ,but my post was already getting long-winded. Being able to jump in and paint for 20 minutes is a massive bonus when trying to squeeze in hobby time. -und_ed
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Post by Tekanan on Apr 13, 2017 0:10:26 GMT
Great advices here!
Like the OP, I too am struggling on juggling life and hobby time after recently gotten married, expecting a baby on the way and building a new business!
So far, I try my best to fit in painting time once a week (even if it's for 30 minutes). As for gaming, I limit it to once per fortnight but it looks more like once in 3-4 weeks now. I can't imagine how difficult this would be after the baby comes.
If I'm going to my gaming club for games, I make sure to let me wife know 2 days in advance in case I need to be elsewhere or just so she can plan things in advance.
I'm trying to (re)learn how to paint quickly. Gone are the days when I can spend meticulous amount of time touching a model up. Unfortunately, I achieve more satisfaction in a good paintjob than winning games. This can lead me to being very anal on alot of things; something that I need to address if I were to paint quickly.
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Post by Gaston on Apr 13, 2017 14:43:27 GMT
Same boat as a lot of the posters here, family, job, etc.
I started Ret just recently, and spent a decent amount of time trying to figure out a paint scheme that was both eye-catching, but also very fast and easy to paint. Took some time up front, but is paying off in the long run when I can accidentally knock out a model in like 2 30 minute sessions, with like only 3 colors. And I am a super slow painter too. I'd say start battle group heavy, cause units will drain your soul.
Battle reports; try Advanced Maneuvers on YouTube, they explain their turns and strategy as the game unfolds on video. Gives you better insight into why decisions are made, rather than just witnessing what they are.
When starting out, I tend to copy lists off of Discount Games Inc. Try to find a selection of lists for a caster you are interested in, then pare them down by what you own and playstyle preferences. Not all lists will be the right lists for you, but tournament winning lists are posted for a reason.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Apr 13, 2017 15:05:52 GMT
Start by reading detailed descriptions of ancient battles with maps showing movement of units (Marathon, Arbella / Gaugamella, Cannae, Zama, etc.) and books on basic military tactics. Also get an understanding of the differences between attrition and maneuver warfare. Once you get your core understanding you can then start to look at the stats an abilities of the units and relate them to historical analogs - this will give you an idea of how to use certain units in general. *Then* start to compare and contrast the detailed differences between units in the game. In the meantime you need to figure out *your* style - some people innately have a better ability to make certain kinds of armies fight better than others. Can you give examples of how this has helped you in Warmachine? On face it seems like a complete waste of time. Far better to watch battle reports on Warmachine (while painting!) and get tips from those about good use of models on the board. When I went to college I was an Army ROTC cadet. That training went into a lot of the basics of small unit tactics and calling in artillery fire. Stuff that is not really applicable to WM/H because of the turn structure and the really short ranged combat weapon ranges relative to the scale of the game.
Being a cadet I had to take additional classes to make me "a more rounded officer." Typically the cadets would take American Military History, but I got closed out of it that semester so I took European Military History. I was fortunate that I had a great professor because while he went over the Who - What - When - Where involved in the history he also hit on the How and Why. How and Why are far more informative on learning how to win battles and wage war, something that will also help you win wargames. If you don't learn *real life* tactics and apply them in a wargame you are relying only on in-game tactics and good dice rolls with a healthy dose of "Get 'em!" to win the game for you. If you want to be predictable and torn apart by someone who knows how to handle bum-rushes, the go ahead and ignore real life military tactics.
Learning real life tactics will also help you understand the way to employ certain units in the game, make the strengths and weaknesses of units become more apparent, and it will help you in army construction because you will see synergies more quickly. There have been times where I have played a game, seen how the opposing army is laid out in relation to the warcaster, and took out the linchpin units before they had a chance to mess me up.
I encourage wargamers to learn the difference between attrition and maneuver warfare because that's when they learn the superiority of thinking with a maneuver warfare mindset. *Anyone* can play the piece trading attrition game. When you have 2 evenly matched opponents playing the attrition game (piece trading) the game has devolved into getting the initiative and dice rolls. I don't want to rely upon good dice rolls to win, I want to win without the dice rolls even being a factor.
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Time....
Apr 13, 2017 15:30:30 GMT
via mobile
Post by elladan52 on Apr 13, 2017 15:30:30 GMT
Sure, but none of the applicable knowledge can only be gained through studying warfare. It's much more efficient to watch or read battle reports detailing how units were used in a particular game.
I definitely recommend listening to Chain-Attack battle reports (when they do them). They discuss their lists, particular synergies within it, thought process when evaluating the enemy army (as you mentioned, this is a critical skill), and what they might change about their lists. As a bonus, the discussion portions are largely audio-only, so you can listen while you paint!
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Post by Blargaliscious on Apr 13, 2017 19:42:05 GMT
Admittedly I like my approach, and it has served me well. To each their own.
For those of us who are allergic to books I see your approach as superior.
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Post by zerfius on Apr 18, 2017 14:08:29 GMT
Again, some great points in here. I am glad I am not the only one who feels the time pinch with regards to the game/hobby/life balance. This week I will set up "studio" so that if I even get 30 minutes, I can sit down and work on something without having to worry about taking 15 minutes to set up. I am also going to devise a plan of attack and set some goals for what models to finish when. That should help give me some drive to complete as well as some satisfaction when I meet the goals. I just got Irusk2 and I really want to use him, so I think that is going to be my first project I intend to work on end to end and I will not use him until he is done. I like the idea that if I want to use a model, that will push me to get it done more quickly. Understanding that I should not be trying for 4-6 colors is a good lesson too. KISS (keep it simple stupid).
With regards to the strategy and competitive aspect - I will start listening to the podcasts to get more familiar with the terminology of the game. I was also advised to know the rule book backwards and forwards. When I am not struggling with the basic rules, the details of the game can be the focus. I like the tactics ideas, but I am somewhat allergic to books (again, time) so I might try watching some of the battle report videos online. That might help.
The idea of copying lists is not that you copy what your opponent is doing, but to copy down (write down) what you are facing so that you can learn how to counter your local meta more effectively. This will not translate directly to tournament games, but it will help with learning more models and factions I think. If I can learn target priority better, that should certainly help me in the short run and long run.
Thanks again all, I hope this discussion continues!
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Post by GumbaFish on Apr 18, 2017 14:19:47 GMT
I also find that I am tending to make lists with a lot of overlapping models these days. This helps me in two ways 1.) I have to spend less time learning what my lists do and 2.) This means if I paint something it gets used more frequently. I also just made a huge checklist of model progress for my entire army so I can hopefully more strategically assemble and paint things with future lists in mind. That way I can also feel good about small progress because I've broken the list down into small things like assembly, basing, priming etc...
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Post by pangurban on Apr 18, 2017 16:34:33 GMT
I also find that I am tending to make lists with a lot of overlapping models these days. This helps me in two ways 1.) I have to spend less time learning what my lists do and 2.) This means if I paint something it gets used more frequently. I also just made a huge checklist of model progress for my entire army so I can hopefully more strategically assemble and paint things with future lists in mind. That way I can also feel good about small progress because I've broken the list down into small things like assembly, basing, priming etc... Anything that makes you feel like you accomplished something meaningful faster is good. Feeling like you're making good progress keeps you going, feeling like you're not makes you consider painting a chore you have to slog through rather than something to enjoy. You should also be able to be proud of the models you finish not just because you finished another model, but because of what you made of it. Find a balance between an assembly line approach and getting to finish single models. Anything up to actual painting can be done in fairly large batches (assuming cleanup doesn't take too much time), but once you start the brush work it doesn't pay to line up 80 models just because they have a similar paintscheme and you can win a bit of time doing the same colors and layers on each of them in one go. You'll go nuts with boredom and it'll take forever before you get a sense of accomplishment. One full unit at a time tops, and if you finish that switch to a solo or a caster or a jack: a single model you can do start to finish and put on the table knowing it's done.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Apr 22, 2017 4:02:25 GMT
For painting, the fastest way to get "respectable" results is to master Base Colour, Wash, Drybrush. Most stuff will look solid if you get a smooth Base Colour, and then carefully wash it to provide shading. You can crank out minis incredibly quickly this way, assuming they aren't too finicky with the details.
In other words, if a model has large sections of area with the same colour, you can paint it very quickly, especially if you use a coloured primer and then wash. For example these guys here...
privateerpress.com/files/products/31097_StormbladeInfantryandStormGunners_WEB.jpg
would be easy to paint. Start with a light to medium blue primer, wash with a dark blue wash, and 60% of your model is done in about 15 seconds. Go to the woven cloth sections, paint a solid golden yellow, and then wash with a light-ish brown. 80% of your model now done. Paint the Silver parts, then wash with black. 88%. You might want to Drybrush with a brighter silver after, to brighten the edges. Go to the gold / copper, and paint gold / copper. Wash with Reikland Flesh Shade from Games Workshop, it's brown with reddish hints that makes that antique gold look. 96% For the pale blue sections, start with white and wash with a super-pale ice blue colour. Maybe drybrush or edge highlight to brighten the edges. 99%, so finish whatever fiddly details are left.
Compared to, say...
privateerpress.com/files/products/32075_FlameguardCleanserOfficerWEB.jpg
Which is just a nightmare of a model to paint. No large areas, no "helpful" colour to prime in... Just look at the top of his helmet to the pendant on the necklace. Purple, gold, Red?, Gold, Silver, a triangle of white, Gold again. Positioning that puts different colours on top of each other. That's just begging to have accidental stripes of colour added all over the friggin' place. Tons of little details.
Look at the right arm. Shoulder place with 3 colours, and a detail. A "tiny" bit of arm flesh before a purple, white, gold [detail] gauntlet, with black fingers and a purple trigger with more gold details. And good luck painting those purple crotch plates without getting purple on the gun or onto the robe!
The point is, with painting, picking models that suit your time frame will help more than any other tips in the world.
These guys?
privateerpress.com/files/products/35073_DawnguardSentinels_WEB.jpg
Prime white, wash [for me] pale blue. Heavy Drybrush White over top, 70% of the model is done in 5 mins. [Production Line painting lets the wash dry on the first model by the time I finish washing the last one] Paint the metal "silver", then wash black. Drybrush with silver to brighten, another 10 mins per model. Go after the details [carefully rewashing scrollwork, paint gems, flesh and hair, standard] is another 15 - 20 mins, on average. Takes approximately 1/2 hour per model, so the whole unit can be painted in about 6 hours. I go for a somewhat complicated base, with some sand [mud], snow flock, and static grass [late winter / early spring] so I choose to spend more time on my bases than your average bear... but the unit is 22 points, so that's a solid chunk of a 75 point army in about 6 hours or so.
www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10158451625610258&set=a.10158305970230258.1073741834.667110257&type=3&theater
I don't normally enjoy painting minis, but I have really enjoyed these retribution models, because they're fast, easy, but still look good with basic painting techniques.
PS: I get the time thing. Full time job, house, wife, 2 boys [7 and 5] and close family members. I have a social night once per week to play games [usually Friday night] and then try to paint for an hour or two after the boys go to bed while watching tv. If you're assembly painting simple units, or a single warjack, I can typically get one unit / warjack done in a week. Detailed solos might take 6 hours on their own... but I wanted them to look better than my grunts. What faction are you looking at?
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Apr 22, 2017 6:53:26 GMT
Compared to, say...
privateerpress.com/files/products/32075_FlameguardCleanserOfficerWEB.jpg
Which is just a nightmare of a model to paint. No large areas, no "helpful" colour to prime in... Just look at the top of his helmet to the pendant on the necklace. Purple, gold, Red?, Gold, Silver, a triangle of white, Gold again. Positioning that puts different colours on top of each other. That's just begging to have accidental stripes of colour added all over the friggin' place. Tons of little details.
Well, it's only if you really want to follow the studio scheme, which would never be my advice. First, PoM scheme is difficult for a beginner (clean white!), second, being a copycat is not as fun as inventing something of your own This model can be painted as quickly and easily as any other. Or actually easier than many, as it has a lot of armour. For example spray silver, paint robes (white or beige), paint bright flesh, paint sand with some light brown, wash everything with some brownish wash and you have a game-ready guy in metal armour, light brown tunic and tanned skin on a desert base in, probably, 3-4 minutes and can go from there with additional detail if you wish (I'd overbrush silver lightly to make armour look less dirty and add some gold or copper details here and there. Done!). Otherwise a lot of good advice on speed painting in your post. I would add one rule to rule them all Basing! Never skip basing! It's the one step that is a great friend of both a beginner and a quick painter as a simple base improves the look of even a mediocre model immensely for very little investment of effort and time, while even a great model on an unfinished base looks poorly. Actually glue the sand and stones to the base at the assembly step and spray the basecoat over everything altogether. You may then paint the base alongside the model, even as one of the first steps, as the techniques involved (quick, heavy drybrushing with large brushes for all that sand) are messy and can easily go over things you've already painted.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Apr 22, 2017 17:15:23 GMT
Tee hee... I glue the sand on after painting the base brown, and then put Agrax Earthshade directly onto the unpainted sand / stone. I then typically glue patches of grass on, but this time decided on the snow / grass mix.
I also ALWAYS suggest finishing the base. The model looks so much better with a simple, finished base.
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Post by zerfius on Apr 24, 2017 15:06:43 GMT
I think I might need to invest in an airbrush for Base Coating. I think that would be the fastest way. I am going Khador but I have chosen NOT to use the standard red theme. I do not like doing something just because that is how it was done before. I am going light blue (ice blue). The guys at my gaming club suggested base coating navy blue and then going over with the light blue. I am also going gunmetal for the primary metal bits and then highlighting in copper.
I have the same thing where I game one night a week and then I try to fit in the hobby parts when I can. I have several second hand models that need to be stripped and repainted and someone suggested getting my wife to help me with this process. Might be a good idea of something we can do together.
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