xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Jul 5, 2018 16:35:12 GMT
So I am a little curious why is no one playing, or at least not talking about it much on here, the Iron Fang theme with dual cav? Is it because they are terrible in melee if they can't get a charge? Other Hotness abounds with MoW being new?
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Post by sand20go on Jul 5, 2018 16:46:23 GMT
So I am a little curious why is no one playing, or at least not talking about it much on here, the Iron Fang theme with dual cav? Is it because they are terrible in melee if they can't get a charge? Other Hotness abounds with MoW being new? I think they overlap a bit with the MoWs. But that said, I am extremely interested in playing OW2 with them - I just want/need more practice with my main pairing (V2 -AC; B3 Jaws priort)
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Iron Fang
Jul 5, 2018 16:52:24 GMT
via mobile
Post by thirdorbital on Jul 5, 2018 16:52:24 GMT
So I am a little curious why is no one playing, or at least not talking about it much on here, the Iron Fang theme with dual cav? Is it because they are terrible in melee if they can't get a charge? Other Hotness abounds with MoW being new? Kind of an odd question really. Why do you expect that to be a thing? Double heavy cav will never be a common build due to a few reasons: 1. Uhlans suffer from the lance rule as you alluded to, and are expensive both in points and real world dollars 2. Our only real cav caster (Vlad3) is considered to be below the curve. 3. The Legion of Steel theme force has it's own issues, namely the complete lack of ranged support and being weak into certain control elements, high quality shooting, continuous effects, etc. That said I do run a Vlad3 double Uhlan list sometimes, or take a single unit with one of the Irusks or Butcher3. It's good fun and does respectable in local events but I'm not making the top table at a convention anytime soon.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 5, 2018 17:00:02 GMT
So I am a little curious why is no one playing, or at least not talking about it much on here, the Iron Fang theme with dual cav? Is it because they are terrible in melee if they can't get a charge? Other Hotness abounds with MoW being new? Kind of an odd question really. Why do you expect that to be a thing? Double heavy cav will never be a common build due to a few reasons: 1. Uhlans suffer from the lance rule as you alluded to, and are expensive both in points and real world dollars 2. Our only real cav caster (Vlad3) is considered to be below the curve. 3. The Legion of Steel theme force has it's own issues, namely the complete lack of ranged support and being weak into certain control elements, high quality shooting, continuous effects, etc. That said I do run a Vlad3 double Uhlan list sometimes, or take a single unit with one of the Irusks or Butcher3. It's good fun and does respectable in local events but I'm not making the top table at a convention anytime soon. One of the reasons that OW2 runs Uhlans well is the dirt cheap BC on the turn that matters. Her Gun is simply amazing - even better with Reinholdt so helps there....or she can simply snipe out with ridiculoulsy far scourges if need be. Windstorm helps with the approach and, of course tactician on Counter Charging weaponmasters with precision strike is BONKERS. Lance rule, as you point out, SUCKS but it should be noted that if you are thinking it through/position allows you can curse of shadows on the Uhlans target. That frees up your repo and POSSIBLY means that you can subsequently charge again at something without giving into free strikes. OW2 is a great caster. A high learning curve - probably the main reason I haven't really sat down and played her but I should as it would make me a better warmachine player.
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Jul 5, 2018 17:00:16 GMT
So I am a little curious why is no one playing, or at least not talking about it much on here, the Iron Fang theme with dual cav? Is it because they are terrible in melee if they can't get a charge? Other Hotness abounds with MoW being new? Kind of an odd question really. Why do you expect that to be a thing? Double heavy cav will never be a common build due to a few reasons: 1. Uhlans suffer from the lance rule as you alluded to, and are expensive both in points and real world dollars 2. Our only real cav caster (Vlad3) is considered to be below the curve. 3. The Legion of Steel theme force has it's own issues, namely the complete lack of ranged support and being weak into certain control elements, high quality shooting, continuous effects, etc. That said I do run a Vlad3 double Uhlan list sometimes, or take a single unit with one of the Irusks or Butcher3. It's good fun and does respectable in local events but I'm not making the top table at a convention anytime soon. I play Cygnar as my primary faction so being a Storm Lance lover it makes me check out other cav. I was looking at them with Kozlov as feat gives them longer threat ranges and a turn of SL level armor vs Melee and he has solid buffs. So really just curious why I don't see them played or at major tournaments. I appreciate your feedback on this.
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Jul 5, 2018 17:09:14 GMT
Kind of an odd question really. Why do you expect that to be a thing? Double heavy cav will never be a common build due to a few reasons: 1. Uhlans suffer from the lance rule as you alluded to, and are expensive both in points and real world dollars 2. Our only real cav caster (Vlad3) is considered to be below the curve. 3. The Legion of Steel theme force has it's own issues, namely the complete lack of ranged support and being weak into certain control elements, high quality shooting, continuous effects, etc. That said I do run a Vlad3 double Uhlan list sometimes, or take a single unit with one of the Irusks or Butcher3. It's good fun and does respectable in local events but I'm not making the top table at a convention anytime soon. One of the reasons that OW2 runs Uhlans well is the dirt cheap BC on the turn that matters. Her Gun is simply amazing - even better with Reinholdt so helps there....or she can simply snipe out with ridiculoulsy far scourges if need be. Windstorm helps with the approach and, of course tactician on Counter Charging weaponmasters with precision strike is BONKERS. Lance rule, as you point out, SUCKS but it should be noted that if you are thinking it through/position allows you can curse of shadows on the Uhlans target. That frees up your repo and POSSIBLY means that you can subsequently charge again at something without giving into free strikes. OW2 is a great caster. A high learning curve - probably the main reason I haven't really sat down and played her but I should as it would make me a better warmachine player. Old Witch just seems good with them. Windstorm can really help them into gunlines. Thank you for the feedback.
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Iron Fang
Jul 5, 2018 17:22:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by thirdorbital on Jul 5, 2018 17:22:33 GMT
One of the reasons that OW2 runs Uhlans well is the dirt cheap BC on the turn that matters. Her Gun is simply amazing - even better with Reinholdt so helps there....or she can simply snipe out with ridiculoulsy far scourges if need be. Windstorm helps with the approach and, of course tactician on Counter Charging weaponmasters with precision strike is BONKERS. Lance rule, as you point out, SUCKS but it should be noted that if you are thinking it through/position allows you can curse of shadows on the Uhlans target. That frees up your repo and POSSIBLY means that you can subsequently charge again at something without giving into free strikes. OW2 is a great caster. A high learning curve - probably the main reason I haven't really sat down and played her but I should as it would make me a better warmachine player. Old Witch just seems good with them. Windstorm can really help them into gunlines. Thank you for the feedback. I do love cav myself - I also have a Makeda2 double cat list and a Lylyth3 double raptor list. And some faction envy that Storm Lances don't have lances... somehow. And only my poor wallet has talked me put of a Kreoss3 double venger list. I do not own OW2 but I can see how her kit would be good for Uhlans.
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Post by auraco on Jul 5, 2018 17:31:41 GMT
Because Legion of steel is super binary and has a lot of terrible match ups I guess. I've tried legion of steel double Cav a lot, my favorite caster to run it is Strakhov2, I've tried it with Old Witch2 with less satisfactory results, Windstorm is cool, but spamming boundless charge is a really bad use of focus, OW2 is very versatile but I don't think legion of steel is the best theme for her and she isn't the best way to run the theme. Strakhov2 turns the list in a scenario powerhouse thanks to the momentum of his feat and upkeeps in a way OW2 can't and considering the relative fragility of the models in the list you usually want a quick scenario win over a big attrition grind. As thirdorbital was saying, the list has a lot of weak spots, control, lack of shooting for spot removal, complete lack of magic weapons or any access to them in meaningfull numbers. Having a legion of steel list in a two list pairing leaves too many weak spots to cover with the second list unless you have a very specific plan.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 5, 2018 18:22:31 GMT
Because Legion of steel is super binary and has a lot of terrible match ups I guess. I've tried legion of steel double Cav a lot, my favorite caster to run it is Strakhov2, I've tried it with Old Witch2 with less satisfactory results, Windstorm is cool, but spamming boundless charge is a really bad use of focus, OW2 is very versatile but I don't think legion of steel is the best theme for her and she isn't the best way to run the theme. Strakhov2 turns the list in a scenario powerhouse thanks to the momentum of his feat and upkeeps in a way OW2 can't and considering the relative fragility of the models in the list you usually want a quick scenario win over a big attrition grind. As thirdorbital was saying, the list has a lot of weak spots, control, lack of shooting for spot removal, complete lack of magic weapons or any access to them in meaningfull numbers. Having a legion of steel list in a two list pairing leaves too many weak spots to cover with the second list unless you have a very specific plan. Do you really need to spam BC? Isn't the issue that it keeps them honest? Under feat you could Cast windstorm for 2, 3 BC for 1 and then have 2 for either a RNG 13 Curse or just camp. Send out 3 Uhlans as precision striking threat 15 missiles. Repo back and then continue to advance with your pikes. Not a double uhlan build (that feels super binary) but it feels like she is BETTER at that game than Strak2 cause ARM18 isn't saving ANYTHING from the current gunlines..
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Post by auraco on Jul 5, 2018 18:44:17 GMT
I don't think legion of steel is that great of a list to go against gunlines, OW2 or not, not when we just got armored corps to do it instead. Legion of steel has too many models vulnerable to too many things that need to be in melee range to do things to be able to play into a big gunline. Using OW2 to try to make up for that is turd polishing, not very good one at that.
Strakhov2 can run a double Ulhan list as a scenario bully list, 2 full units of ulhans running, the advance move pikemen unit advancing and mini feating, and Strakhov setting up his upkeep and following thanks to reposition 5 makes for a pretty scary scenario army. Most time you'll feat turn one or two, depending on the number of guns on the other side of the table. Quicken makes that even scarier on scenario, turn two is usually charge with the quickened unit and then hotswap it to get more missiles, for 4 focus you can affect way more models than OW2 can with her discount boundless charges. I also found that inviolable resolve on a unit of ulhan really helps put them in a ''need effort to remove from the table'' spot that the OW can't really pull off.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 5, 2018 18:58:42 GMT
So I am a little curious why is no one playing, or at least not talking about it much on here, the Iron Fang theme with dual cav? Is it because they are terrible in melee if they can't get a charge? Other Hotness abounds with MoW being new? I played OW_2 with double cav a lot earlier in the year, even managed to herp-derp my way to a tourney win It's definitely a great list, but MoW is the new hotness (and Legos are not currently in Champions )
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Post by sand20go on Jul 5, 2018 19:05:53 GMT
... not when we just got armored corps to do it instead. No disagreement there. As I said the LoS suffers because of AC overlap. But I do wonder about a volume of attack issue. My experience with AC is that it starts to really peter out as you start to lose models: the shock troopers shield wall starts to weaken, the MoW lose vengeance after Dragons, etc. etc. A thing LOS has going for it is volume of attacks _AND_ high value added attacks (knockdown on precision strike is simply bonkers into a lot of things). Or maybe I am sad because the Fangs haven't seen the table in months ;-)
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Iron Fang
Jul 5, 2018 20:50:27 GMT
via mobile
Post by Zaku on Jul 5, 2018 20:50:27 GMT
... not when we just got armored corps to do it instead. No disagreement there. As I said the LoS suffers because of AC overlap. But I do wonder about a volume of attack issue. My experience with AC is that it starts to really peter out as you start to lose models: the shock troopers shield wall starts to weaken, the MoW lose vengeance after Dragons, etc. etc. A thing LOS has going for it is volume of attacks _AND_ high value added attacks (knockdown on precision strike is simply bonkers into a lot of things). Or maybe I am sad because the Fangs haven't seen the table in months ;-) I am real interested at looking to see what can be done in a Legion of Steel army. The Irusks seems to be a decent drop into them, especially Irusk2. The Irusks come with some great spot removal to hit stealthy solos, or punish them with a small magic AoE. I have been working on an Irusk2 list that actually had me consider taking a Destroyer now that the Bombard is a 4" AoE. Boosted attack amd damage rolls for eveything under that AoE seems real nice for a 14" range gun.
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Iron Fang
Jul 5, 2018 21:53:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by thirdorbital on Jul 5, 2018 21:53:35 GMT
... not when we just got armored corps to do it instead. No disagreement there. As I said the LoS suffers because of AC overlap. But I do wonder about a volume of attack issue. My experience with AC is that it starts to really peter out as you start to lose models: the shock troopers shield wall starts to weaken, the MoW lose vengeance after Dragons, etc. etc. A thing LOS has going for it is volume of attacks _AND_ high value added attacks (knockdown on precision strike is simply bonkers into a lot of things). Or maybe I am sad because the Fangs haven't seen the table in months ;-) To the original point, volume of attack is why most LegoS lists don't want double uhlans. One unit is great though.
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 6, 2018 1:17:32 GMT
Volume of attacks is the biggest issue facing LegoS AND AK for the most part. AK has had some relief with the retributive strike, bomber UA etc but LegoS is, well, irusk1 legos would probably be great against oldschool hark jackspam.
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