granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353 
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Post by granor on Apr 13, 2017 12:44:47 GMT
This is how all the rule interactions end up. Is that a yes?  Yes it is sorry I did not mean to be evasive |
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Post by fragpalm on Apr 15, 2017 12:32:26 GMT
I have two Sentinels painted since they were fantastic with Hexy2 in mark2, and have been trying to get them into lists since mark3 released, but every time I put them in a list I find myself wondering why I'm not choosing a couple of Canoneers instead, or a Mammoth even.
My problem with Sentinels is not their range or the size of their AOE, it's their hyper focus against living in a world of jacks. Sure I've seen dudespam in mark3, though it's usually in the form of constructs, undead or blast-immune troopers (Zaal2, Ghost Fleet, Satyxis), but when my 16 point investment is suddenly dropped into Amon or Vyros2 and I find myself desperately trying to buff them into adequacy as melee heavies it leaves me unimpressed. This is surely a meta problem. I've been to several tournaments since the Skorne errata, and have only seen a small percentage of Hordes armies participate.
If I'm lucky enough to be facing a Hordes faction with the Sentinels, or beautifully getting a bead on a caster I can see them as excellent. Maybe the trick to them is Black Spot with Hexy2, laying down scather templates across the field. Or with Rasheth, who can contribute his own templates. I can see Naaresh boosting them into good melee beasts with his feat, and that's something, but a cheaper Sentry might always be a better bet if melee is your aim.
I can't say enough good things about Soldiers on the other hand.
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Post by paingiverguy on Apr 22, 2017 14:46:32 GMT
I just played a 0 pt battle. I used Naaresh, a Sentinel and a Soldier. The bugs were great. I love the bugs. Definitely buying some bugs. However, Naaresh disappointed. I can't believe his P+S is only 11. I understand he has the blood tokens but they should have at least given him weapon master. I do like his spell list with Cyclone and Lamentation. Blur is cool. Bleed is meh (typical ranged magic attack).
I did enjoy bobing and weaving with him but if you dont do damage then it's all for nothing.
I also understand that with a 0 pt army its hard to do any tricks. His lists will prolly have two min units of PGBH. One for the beasts and the other to whip him into shape. Maybe even a PGMT.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on May 1, 2017 22:36:30 GMT
Start drive.google.com/open?id=0BwDLR6YQge4TNHJrZXdVdmM4aFkI wanted to keep my karax away from rough terrain. The right hand side is heavy right now but the archidons are fast enough that I am not concerned. I should have started naaresh more toward the right hand side. Top1 drive.google.com/open?id=0BwDLR6YQge4TS2czN0FaRUZSQWcOpponent runs everything. One cav on the right hand side in the trench are in charge range of the bug. Bot1 drive.google.com/open?id=0BwDLR6YQge4TU0VLbEU4ZVZjRm8I Rush both the bugs and the Rhinodon. Naaresh casts lamentation advances and then casts cyclone so when the rightmost bug charges the cav it is still inside control. One bug advances and shoots a cav killing it. Rhinodon puts up spiny and tramples. The bug charges the cav gets one in melee range and kills it. Archidons advance and paingivers get b2b with bests so I have some flexibility in order of activations next turn. Karax shield wall with the aggy crying behind them. Top2 drive.google.com/open?id=0BwDLR6YQge4TU3FNNHM5SWRteHMLeft hand side cav charge karax and between impact attacks (not affected by aggy’s cry) and charge attacks they kill 2 karrax (karax survivability is impressive) and then reform back. The jack on that side can’t get anyone within arc range so it just advances. Flameguard ran and engage everything they can. Daughters ambush in and charge on paingiver as the pond keeps them away from the rest of my back line and everyone else runs to engage. Jacks and caster move up to the flag but the bug is contesting right now. Bot2 I only have 8 attacks so you are going to have to share drive.google.com/open?id=0BwDLR6YQge4TYlp6X0pFLU9LcFERight bug frenzies charging and missing the flameguard. Zaadesh and Naaresh free up the bug and rhinodon with naaresh feating and sprinting back. Blue Archidon goes up and kills 2 cav without getting a crit pitch. Brown archidon gets a crit pich teaching the cav to share attacks and tosses the cav into another one killing both. Though it took a huge free strike to get there. Paingivers roll like bosses and kill off a bunch of daughters. Rhinodon threshers missing everyone then spinies. Gladiator kills the rest of the flameguard freeing up the bug to shoot a cav member. Karax shieldwall CMA up and kill 2 cav. Top3 drive.google.com/open?id=0BwDLR6YQge4Takl0dmZYeTVYbzQThe timing of this pic is off the Blue archidon has frenzied and killed a daughter off. The Daughters kill paingivers and try to hurt the archidons. Jack charges the rhinodon hurting it a bunch but not killing it. The other jack leaves the bug on 11 with terrible dice (I didn’t notice it was under the aggy’s aura). The cav and weaponmaster kill off 3 karax with some bad dice. The flameguard move out of the way while making no attacks because the feat puts my armor up too high. The solo guy charges zaadesh and hits him for 14 that a transfer to the glad (mistake). Then hits him 2 more times and kills him. My opponent feats knocking my fury down to 4 getting him out of lamentation range and setting me up for a bunch of frenzies next turn Bot3 drive.google.com/open?id=0BwDLR6YQge4TU3NOX2dZdnYxZTgSo THIS is the turn the blue archidon frenzies. The rest of my frenzy checks go well. The brown guy kills a daughter and sprints in line with the last one. The Rhinodon gets enraged treshers killing everyone around him then buys on the jack. The bug also gets enraged and hits the jack but he lives. The glad with an aspect out from the 14 transfer and wild runs back to naaresh. Naaresh takes control of him and heals the crippled aspects of various beasts. The bug in the middle hurts the jack but doesn’t kill it. The karax do a 5 man on the solo missing. This was a pretty weak turn due to all the fury that remained on the table. Concede drive.google.com/open?id=0BwDLR6YQge4TenQyM29NOERFZlUThe weaponmaster solo and cav swing around the karax with parry and kill off the aggy and one karax. The caster is able to kill off the bug. The jack charges naaresh and swings on him killing the brown archidon and hurting the other beasts the rightmost jack later kills but between transfers and blood tokens doesn’t kill him. It is pretty late and my opponent needs to get home so we call it quits. Final Thoughts: Naaresh’s feat and field marshal really make our cheaper beasts work but 5 heavies (the glad is on zaadesh) is too much fury for him to run with an aggy. I am not sure what infantry he wants with blur but he probably wants to bring an aggy even though I didn’t use him well this game. I was super impressed with the karax and will get more games in with them backed up by an aggy. Naaresh personally starts super low pow at 11 and blood tokens are really required to get him to do much of anything. His personal maneuverability is great with sprint in the list. But I find he ends up spending a bunch of fury to charge an infantry model or just move around the board. Lamentation at 12” does very little to warmachine but I would bet would be back breaking into hordes. The gun bugs were a big disappointment and they probably should have just been soldiers giving the list some non-feat punch. The swarm being living dependant hurts too much and def 13 isn’t great even with it does work. The gun is so low range that as the first turn shows they end up in melee very fast. I never got blur out on the karax because I wanted to charge the cav with the gun bug. This was a mistake but the list really has too much fury on the table and should probably play only 4 beasts on Naaresh but this will limit his feat’s effectiveness. I am dropping Naaresh for now. I am not sure how to make his list (maybe a titan herd with a bronzeback?). The feat wants a bunch of beasts but the 6 fury limits their effectiveness. |
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 2, 2017 4:16:03 GMT
we've actually discussed this before. Only 1 should ever be a sentinel. The rest should be soldiers, regardless of how many bugs you play. The sentinel makes the opponent HAVE to be warry of ranged attacks, even though he'd only get 1 or 2 in before getting engaged. At the same time, the soldiers can rush the field as fast as they want under the krea aura and not have to worry about getting shot; most shots will miss after they are under the krea aura, def goes up to 13 (before concealment or cover) against range and their armor gets boosted to 25. Blitz the bastards up there while using rush on the krea so he can keep up. Once you're finally on the attacking turn, let them rampage.
Lamentation is more for making it difficult to use multiple upkeeps than it is for reducing spell count.
Blur is for units like Ferox, Keltari, Swordsmen, Nihilators, and venators, where using it on them makes it practically impossible to hit so you don't need to worry about any fluffiness that might be afterwards. You can also use it on beasts that constantly get targeted by range or Celrati to make them a noteworthy tarpit.
Try cracking him with a few whips, 5 preferably, then use his feat followed by Cyclone, letting his already 16 POW clear out the area surrounding their caster. Afterwards, combo attack the caster for a base 20 P+S. Even if you fail the kill, because you cleared out the area around the caster, it'll be much easier to push additional models into the caster, like the +3 STR +3 ARM beasts that were just waiting for a chance. This tactic can also be used to clear out tarpits if you have him with Molik Karn, who can give him a 5" repo, though you probably won't need to combo attack to clear the rest of the pit in that scenario. The reason Naaresh is only P+S 11 is because the blood tokens take him up to 16 with arm 20. With him having 2 weapons, he basically becomes a slightly below average caster with the potential to do as much, if not more, damage than a gladiator titan while having a spell that moves him his full advancement and makes him immune to free strikes that then ends with flashing blade. Yeah, a gladiator titan with flashing blade x.x;
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on May 2, 2017 13:17:56 GMT
I thought the reason to take Naaresh and Aradii spam is to rid oneself of the grindstone-around-the-neck Krea. Although, last night I had Lylyth1 shoot down 4 quickened Ferox in rubble without even using her accuracy feat last night, so, sure, Krea away.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on May 2, 2017 18:52:30 GMT
I thought the reason to take Naaresh and Aradii spam is to rid oneself of the grindstone-around-the-neck Krea. . Yea if I run him again with soldiers it will be without the krea. I really don't like spending the points on that lady when I have bugs around. |
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 2, 2017 18:57:25 GMT
oh no, didder, Skorne cannot be played with great success without a gladiator, krea, beast handlers, and an aggy. PP has us by the balls on that one. You have no idea how much I hear people complaining about how skorne is "OP" when they've never played as them x.x I've yet to see any of those players play as skorne except 1 of whom quickly withdrew his comment and went back to playing Merc/cryx. We have to spend the majority of our beast points just getting the foundation to play on equal level, and when they die mid battle we have to deal with being the most UP faction in the game.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on May 2, 2017 20:07:44 GMT
oh no, didder, Skorne cannot be played with great success without a gladiator, krea, beast handlers, and an aggy. PP has us by the balls on that one. You have no idea how much I hear people complaining about how skorne is "OP" when they've never played as them x.x I've yet to see any of those players play as skorne except 1 of whom quickly withdrew his comment and went back to playing Merc/cryx. We have to spend the majority of our beast points just getting the foundation to play on equal level, and when they die mid battle we have to deal with being the most UP faction in the game. I have sworn off using kreas and agonizers. I still lose 99% of the time (definitely not hyperbole on that), but I lost just as much when I was running them. At least now I'm not tearing my hair out trying to keep a dozen plates spinning with positioning all those aura bubbles.
Suppose it's fruitless to gripe, or to wish for changes in the wake of the errata, but imo the Krea needs to lose flank and go down to 4 points, the Agonizer needs to lose his 2 unused cries, get a crappier animus, and go down to 3 points. These beasts have zero offensive possibility. Their resiliency is maybe the worst per-point of all models. They are Willbreaker-class models, they need to be pointed as such.
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Post by paingiverguy on May 2, 2017 20:19:18 GMT
I'll have to agree. The Krea and the Aggy are only good for the animus and cry respectively. I hate spending 13 points for them. In fact, I try not to use both. It's either one or the other. Normally, I go with the Krea.
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on May 2, 2017 22:46:01 GMT
Just play with adr then. Plug and play what you need.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 3, 2017 0:54:19 GMT
most people only use the Krea and berid the agonizer because Skorne can generally maul our opponents to death in melee, we just can't seem to be able to get up there to do it. The Agy is better at zone contention, though, where you can shove his ass right behind the contending models and put the opponent at a huge disadvantage when it comes to clearing them out. Now that several factions are also gaining mage units, his spell negation also becomes nice. I just think it's mechanics need to be ironed out. Negate all beneficial effects, lower mat or rat, or all casters roll a d3 when they use a spell would make more sense.
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Post by fragpalm on May 3, 2017 12:43:21 GMT
It's usually the Krea or Agonizer for me, not both.
I do find both support pieces very easy to kill. Typically I have one or more shield guards in my lists, and despite that either sprays or a ton of guns pop these models off without effort. At least with the Willbreaker you can keep him away from the front lines and still have him contribute all game.
Though I do experience post-errata shame at ever complaining to anyone about Skorne, I find that something might still be off, with support, but also with having completely balanced models in a world of Woldwyrds, Sentry Stones, Stormlances, the TEP, etc. That doesn't mean we can't have a game of it, but it can be discouraging.
I play in a rather large, competitive meta, with plenty of people showing up for the bigger events (up to 30 sometimes), and currently I am the only Skorne player. Lots of people jumped on the Skorne train after the errata, but they quickly got off again in favour of Khador or Mercs and such. As for me, I still see how good Skorne can be and am sticking to my guns until we get decent theme lists.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on May 3, 2017 13:17:45 GMT
I would love to see a couple of themes that directly address our support bloat issue. Obviously, making agonizers and kreas free when conditions are met would be the easiest way to go, but what if they also got to start with the Vision effect for the game or something?
Honestly, if they opened up the ADR roster, let all casters and locks use some amount of ADR points, or, heck, if the agonizer and krea both had a special rule, or a theme force provided one, that just let you switch one out for the other after list selection but before the game started, then I'd be happy.
It wouldn't take much, just a general ADR 10 points for everyone. That would let krea/aggy + soulward be much more fluid.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on May 3, 2017 23:35:29 GMT
yeah, there are way too many nerfs and math corrections that need to be done throughout the Warmahorde factions that anyone who attempts to jump on the skorne wagon will almost always jump off. We have too many required models that we can't even fit them all into a competitive list, leaving it to player strategy to actually stand a chance of winning.
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