chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474 
|
Post by chuggyg on Jun 20, 2018 19:00:12 GMT
An ambushing assault kommando would also threaten the entire table aside from a 4" strip right down the center, so that's incredibly unlikely to ever happen. Kossites are already pushing it pretty far.
|
|
|
|
Post by tapecrawler on Jun 20, 2018 19:30:00 GMT
Yep and Kossites are in every list. Sorry, I love the Kossite models and concept but they are so niche to be almost useless in the game. Kommandos need a lot of help as well, and Ambush is a very fluffy option. I’m liking some of the other suggestions in this thread, and not really advocating that they should get Ambush. I’m just trying to look at alternatives that haven’t been mentioned. What about taking a page out of Trenchers and giving them Mark Target? Or better yet, just let their grenades act like every other grenade in the game.
|
|
chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
|
Post by chuggyg on Jun 20, 2018 19:58:33 GMT
Kossites are the only reason I ever play jaws. You have an incredibly cheap unit (1.16 points/model) that threatens 19" from either table edge, has pathfinder, and can gain the ability to ignore forests from a free solo that doesn't require command range. With back strikes they're an effective rat 6. With aim they can be Rat8. The only time I've ever not had my kossites kill at least their own weight in points (to say nothing of the things they kill typically being important support models) is when I've lost the ambush due to facing down the jaws mirror.
Ambushing assault kommandos would be 1.66 points/model, threaten an extra 3 inches, and have +2 rat. They'd be far and away the best ambushing unit in the entire game.
|
|
|
|
Post by tapecrawler on Jun 20, 2018 23:42:42 GMT
So Ambushing Assault Kommandoes would be better than ambushing Satyxis Blood Witches? They are 1.3 points per model with stealth and magic weapons. I’m not arguing to argue, I’m honestly trying to understand. AK’s would probably be OP but it would give them a role and right now I don’t believe they have one other than being a very expensive speed bump.
|
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Jun 21, 2018 8:04:12 GMT
This thread again.
Prey, give them prey. They're a special forces unit, they have a target and they take it out. Prey represents this better than any other mechanic in the game and its an ability the faction doesn't have yet at all so they aren't niching on any other model's toes. Giving them cover fire steps on strike tankers and conquest. Giving them ambush steps on kossites.
|
|
chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
|
Post by chuggyg on Jun 21, 2018 12:56:56 GMT
So Ambushing Assault Kommandoes would be better than ambushing Satyxis Blood Witches? They are 1.3 points per model with stealth and magic weapons. I’m not arguing to argue, I’m honestly trying to understand. AK’s would probably be OP but it would give them a role and right now I don’t believe they have one other than being a very expensive speed bump. Blood witches threat 12.5 from the table edge, assault kommandos would threat 22 inches from the table edge. It's a massive difference. |
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Jun 21, 2018 13:27:14 GMT
This thread again. Prey, give them prey. They're a special forces unit, they have a target and they take it out. Prey represents this better than any other mechanic in the game and its an ability the faction doesn't have yet at all so they aren't niching on any other model's toes. Giving them cover fire steps on strike tankers and conquest. Giving them ambush steps on kossites. Agree with Prey.
Provided they also get some sort of meaningful integration into theme forces. Even with Prey I would struggle to justify taking them over more Winterguard in most WGK lists, as the WG are so much cheaper and count for theme benefits (doesn't need to be making Kommandos WG units - just change the theme force to include points spent on WG or AK models).
Or move them into Jaws, justify it as a more special forces type theme and accept they're not going to contribute to theme benefits directly, but might be worth including - I can see a place for a min unit + 3 Flamethrowers as an anti-infantry component in some Jaws lists. |
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Jun 21, 2018 13:58:15 GMT
I am torn between prey (+2 RAT) vs. Hunter (effective +4 against the model in cover). I do not see really a key need, in our faction, for prey given a variety of damage boosters and polishers. The +2 to hit is a "nice to have".
But HUNTER would solve a key problem for us.
A) We lack GENERALLY great answers to dug in infantry. Yes yes, WGI mini-feat. But that is a base 12 inch threat (far less than the dug in things they are likely to see (trenchers, brigards) and still requires Joe's speech of +2 RAT to get above the RAT 5 vs. Def 13 curve. This is even more true in a faction that lacks an arc node (safe distance venoms) and which is slow-ish (vulnerable to being swarmed and jammed by said trenchers and brigards.
B) Dug in is a problem for us because most of our crowd control at range comes from blast.
It is also thematic. They are SUPPOSED to be the anti-trencher unit. At present they are anything BUT.
(and if PP is really concerned here make em niche - give them hunter+true sight against models typed Trencher. Take THAT Juris ;-)
|
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Jun 21, 2018 14:04:01 GMT
Yeah the kommandoes supposedly concept of being anti trencher models really falls flat because they can't deal with dig in is annoying. Giving them hunter would give them an interesting niche that doesn't step on anything else in the faction. They would probably need a bit more than that to be fieldable, but it would be a good start.
|
|
|
|
Post by thematsjo on Jun 21, 2018 14:57:16 GMT
Wow, a lot of insanely interesting ideas here! I still like my own suggestions, but I like a bunch of yours as well.
For a "black ops" redesign I'd probably do something like this:
* Give them +1 DEF
* Make them playable in Armored Corps, Jaws of the Wolf and Winter Guard Kommand.
* Give them some kind of Bond [Strakhov], granting them either Ambush or Advance Deployment in armies with Strakhov
* Replace Shield Wall with Wall of Steel
* Give them Hunter
* Give them Prowl
* Give them a CA that boosts their grenade attacks.
Thank you all, I'll probably do another one of these soon, maybe for Kossite Woodsmen, or Wolves of Winter.
|
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Jun 21, 2018 20:56:58 GMT
I am torn between prey (+2 RAT) vs. Hunter (effective +4 against the model in cover). I do not see really a key need, in our faction, for prey given a variety of damage boosters and polishers. The +2 to hit is a "nice to have". But HUNTER would solve a key problem for us. A) We lack GENERALLY great answers to dug in infantry. Yes yes, WGI mini-feat. But that is a base 12 inch threat (far less than the dug in things they are likely to see (trenchers, brigards) and still requires Joe's speech of +2 RAT to get above the RAT 5 vs. Def 13 curve. This is even more true in a faction that lacks an arc node (safe distance venoms) and which is slow-ish (vulnerable to being swarmed and jammed by said trenchers and brigards. B) Dug in is a problem for us because most of our crowd control at range comes from blast. It is also thematic. They are SUPPOSED to be the anti-trencher unit. At present they are anything BUT. (and if PP is really concerned here make em niche - give them hunter+true sight against models typed Trencher. Take THAT Juris ;-) Use victor and set them on fire. They don't have to take blast damage for the fire pie plate to set them ablaze and their armor isn't high enough that the ensuing pow 12 wont deal with them either via forced tough or death. It is actually a pretty great answer to dug in infantry. |
|
|
|
Post by AdeptusB on Jun 21, 2018 21:21:10 GMT
My main problem with AKs is their lack of damage output. I'm hoping that the upcoming CA grants Gang.
|
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Jun 21, 2018 21:41:24 GMT
My main problem with AKs is their lack of damage output. I'm hoping that the upcoming CA grants Gang. kayazy have gang, give them prey, its the same basic effect with the exception that it plays into their role as special forces troopers. |
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Jun 21, 2018 23:38:48 GMT
I am torn between prey (+2 RAT) vs. Hunter (effective +4 against the model in cover). I do not see really a key need, in our faction, for prey given a variety of damage boosters and polishers. The +2 to hit is a "nice to have". But HUNTER would solve a key problem for us. A) We lack GENERALLY great answers to dug in infantry. Yes yes, WGI mini-feat. But that is a base 12 inch threat (far less than the dug in things they are likely to see (trenchers, brigards) and still requires Joe's speech of +2 RAT to get above the RAT 5 vs. Def 13 curve. This is even more true in a faction that lacks an arc node (safe distance venoms) and which is slow-ish (vulnerable to being swarmed and jammed by said trenchers and brigards. B) Dug in is a problem for us because most of our crowd control at range comes from blast. It is also thematic. They are SUPPOSED to be the anti-trencher unit. At present they are anything BUT. (and if PP is really concerned here make em niche - give them hunter+true sight against models typed Trencher. Take THAT Juris ;-) Use victor and set them on fire. They don't have to take blast damage for the fire pie plate to set them ablaze and their armor isn't high enough that the ensuing pow 12 wont deal with them either via forced tough or death. It is actually a pretty great answer to dug in infantry. Sure but that is one model. It is akin to It is like saying "Dig in? shoot just spray them with Ternions". Yes, Victor solves that with fire. But Victor is not in every list and some lists can not "afford" a 34 point model and how that limits your options. |
|
|
|
Post by mcdermott on Jun 21, 2018 23:52:45 GMT
Good thing theres multi list formats.
|
|
