|
|
Post by sand20go on Jun 17, 2018 17:48:54 GMT
Here is the list. Remember the rules. This is NOT about crafting the perfect counter. It is thinking about YOUR pair - who you would drop, how you would tactically approach and how to leverage WHAT YOU HAVE against it.
Circle Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] The Bones of Orboros
[Krueger 2] Krueger the Stormlord [+27]
- Megalith [20]
- Woldwarden [14]
- Woldwarden [14]
- Woldwyrd [9]
- Woldwyrd [9]
Blackclad Stoneshaper [0(3)]
Blackclad Stoneshaper [0(3)]
Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)]
Bog Trog Mist Speaker [4]
Sentry Stone & Mannikins [5]
Sentry Stone & Mannikins [5]
Shifting Stones [3]
Celestial Fulcrum [19]
So lets review. Feat allows you to time walk _AND_ push stuff out. Windstorm will frequently be cast by Krugar which means stuff within 14 of him is at minus 5 range. Rebuke can be applied through Geomancy from Megalith and the Wardens so Krugar can be very safe while shutting down a lot of the charge stuff. A serious amount of lightning storms can be handed out to help control and deny infantry that hates POW 10s. Gallows can further move things around (as well as TK). Hunter's Mark on Demand and then Earth's Power to tune up the Beasts. Wryds ridiculously good here with 3 Pow 12 shots with 3 fury. Finally the Flucrum helps with Fury management as well as very scary shooting.
This is a good match up to think about as it leverages a great control feat synergizing with good shooting and other control aspects.
For me it has to be My Vlad2 list as Butcher 3 WGK can just be shot off the board way too easily and will have a hard time getting much work done between Windstorm. Critically I want the side that denies, as much as possible, a place for Krugar to go hide up in a forward position where he can lead from the front and get windstorm cast as deep as possible. Windstorm is "interesting" here. Conquest out shoots it (15 vs. 14). Ditto x2 Victor. So this is NOT OW2.
IN respect to my list, Conquest and Shocktrooper UAs keep Krugar honest between no pushes and no gallows. Probably imperative to accept that Rebuke WILL be going out on the shocks - but that means not onto the democorp. Can only be in one place. The Beasts, with Huntersmark, threaten 11 with hunter's mark.
For my Vlad2 list, if going first (what I want) I will get out HoF onto the bombers and Arcane Might onto Vlad. I am NOT putting out Assail onto the Conquest if I can remember that because I don't want the 4 dice POW 12s from the Wyrds. If second then "choices". It depends on the fulcrum, vlad, and the Wyrd's are. Generally speaking I want to see if I can put out pie plates that screw with his shooting. Hard and not at all assured but if I can get them out they really help here if Vlad can do it safely. See side choice here as both want to play the "lead from the front to hurt shooting" game ;-)
My main strategy will be to press the Shocks forward in shield wall as long as possible (aka - until Rebuke goes out). The democorp will be middle and prepared to be the feat targets to try to take out Beasts. As in most match ups - focus on one target at a time. Here priority has to be megalith.
My shooting wants to be smart. _IF_ I can the Wayfarer is my top priority because without him I can out threat outside of feat turn his Beasts. Next is PROBABLY the Wryds. They _CAN_ be squishy - especially if you crit them into something and they are a threat to both vlad and Conquest (purganation). Ideally covering fire is used to help conrol the Mankins as much as possible from spraying our man of wars. Next would be the Heavies. Bombers likely have similar target priority
Shocks need to be our principal contesters with no push and no knock down. They have to do it at "just" arm 17 (20 on the feat) but c'est la vi. The "good" news is under Vlad2's feat you can get a walking shockrooper up 9 and threatening 11 - further than Rebuke Range. I _THINK_ that you go ahead and feat - hitting the warden's at dice -1. Wiht a couple of boosts from Arcane might and possibly cycling HoF (not guaranteed cause of arcane supression) you have a decent chance of taking out the warden. That said, your DemoCorp should be also able to threaten - they being dice +1 and the opportunity with a crit to roll 4 dice.
Like many Khador vs. Control with shooting it is a hard match up. No natural fixes here that are great. But I think with AC we have decent tools.
|
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Jun 17, 2018 19:53:32 GMT
Just a detail, Rebuke is an upkeep, can't be applied by geomancy, so Kruger has to be the one casting it.
Having hand of fate in play while the shrimps are in play is also a terrible idea I think, the list can shrug off a couple of pow 12, but boosted pow 12 are an other matter.
I was thinking of trying a zerkova 1 man o war list to go against that. Hex blast can remove rebbuke form the table, the feat is also a big no to the shrimps and the battle engine. The cloudwall also helps a lot since only one model can be affected by guidance each turn. Suppression tankers can also work through windstorm with their sprays.
|
|
|
|
Post by Netherby on Jun 18, 2018 5:03:51 GMT
I've played into this list recently and seen it play into some other stuff. I haven't actually seen it win a game, but it does bring some scary tech.
The first thing to be aware of is the sheer amount of TKs it can cast and the flexibility it has with activation order when casting them thanks to all the Geomancy. This gives it between 13"-14" of threat on a heavy depending on which combination of tools it uses.
Second thing is that you will be HEAVILY punished for any upkeeps you put out, so they had better be really important. A single Wyrd can cripple a heavy 'jack if it has an upkeep on it or wreck half a unit of MoWs.
It's a list that has a very, very strong control game, while also having both the ranged and melee punch to kill things it singles out. But that is its main weakness, it can only kill a couple of specific targets each turn and has to hope the control abilities will stop it getting rolled over.
Also it really doesn't want to cast Windstorm. If your list has something that will force out Windstorm every turn that can be really good.
If you have LegoS then it's a good drop. I'm not sure about AC, in theory Shocks should be decent and Bombardiers could be a big enough threat to force out Windstorm. Karchev Jaws is also quite a strong drop into this, but I wouldn't be running that until S0 is out.
|
|
|
|
Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jun 18, 2018 8:52:59 GMT
So from my pairing of Old Witch1 (WGK) & Strakhov1 (JotW) this is a Strakhov drop.
Early game, Strakhov is gunning for the sentry stones. This is done through a spriggan or Torch using flares to light them up for Behemoth, or sending in a jack early. Ideally Torch can get there, then use Overrun and sprint to get back to safety (especially doable with Superiority on him). Ideally I'd want to get a stone from the shifting stone unit early on, but this is secondary to the sentry stones by a long margin. With sentry stones gone it makes it easier for eliminators and Yuri to contest in awkward spots where needed, slowing down Kruger's scenario game.
While Strakhov's jacks need to be wary of the control elements of Krugers army the Circle beasts and battle engine need to be very cagey to avoid Strakhov feating to get the alpha. This is ultimately what Strakhov would be looking to do: use the feat to alpha as many of the heavies, woldwyrds and battle engine (in that order of priority) off the table. Though if Kruger overextends there's no issue going for an assassination, particularly with Torch around. While Kruger can use terrain to limit the angles of attack Strakhov can do exactly the same to limit target options for Kruger. As mentioned above, Kruger doesn't particularly want to cast Windstorm. Behemoth can force the issue, particularly once sentry stones are dead, by threatening wyrds and support solos (and Kruger himself, though I wouldn't generally be going for him with Behemoth's guns).
The inclusion of a kodiak (on Malakov1) adds a cloud for someone to hide behind too, and Strakhov should be chucking out another cloud each turn to make life a little bit more difficult. Keep an eye out for Strakhov being able to charge a sentry stone with Overrun on himself to take it out before moving 12" back to safety. For upkeeps, Strakhov takes Occultation to defend against random TK/Gallows-based assassinations, and Superiority will move around as normal, generally starting on Torch. Sentry is probably not great to have up, but it could be put on Behemoth if he keeps away from wyrds. Generally be aware of wyrds and their threat range, remembering all the TK etc that can go out to increase it. Again this is where forests/clouds become your friend, hiding the jacks from view. Getting the juggernaut (or any heavy really) behind a forest can be nasty with a battle engine in the opponents list since the juggernaut can now effectively see through the forest, so threatens the battle engine and anything near it thanks to Strakhov's feat.
So the game is about projecting the threat of the lists jacks through Strakhov's feat, as normal for him. Ideally you want to force an early feat from Kruger without too much scenario loss before feating yourself to remove the heavy hitters and set your jacks up to rule the field. Going first you might be able to force out a turn 1 feat if you go far enough up the board, allowing you to reposition turn 2 before feating forward again turn 3. Going second makes this more tricky and you need to be smarter with terrain and positioning, but is still very doable. Generally games against Kruger are all about positioning smartly, so it's kind of difficult to fully theory out.
For reference, my Strakhov1 list is currently:
Jaws of the Wolf
Strakhov1 +28
-Behemoth -25
-Juggernaut -13
-Spriggan -17
-Torch -18
Greylord Forge Seer -0(4)
Greylord Forge Seer -0(4)
Kovnik Andrei Malakov -4
-Kodiak -13
Yuri the Axe -0(6)
Battle Mechaniks (Min) -3
Kayazy Eliminators -5
Kayazy Eliminators -5
Thinking of dropping the kodiak and an eliminator unit, moving the juggernaut to Malakov1 and putting in a grolar, but not tried it yet.
Cheers,
Dave
|
|
|
|
Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 18, 2018 11:34:58 GMT
With V2 AK & B3 wgk I would drop V2 here (or against any other Circle list). I want to feat where I can kill 2 out of 3 heavies. After they are gone it will hard for Krueger to remove the mows. I can sort of counter Rebuke with Arcane might boosts. AK naturally counters the pushes/knockdowns and POW 10s. Telekinesis can screw up charges, so I'll have to pay attention to Atanas positioning. Blackclads should be priority targets for non arm cracking stuff.
V2 should pay attention to where he is standing because of Arcane might boosting shots on him.
I actually don't think Circle wants to drop this into any kind of Khador. It's kinda light on arm cracking and we always have either jack spam or mow spam. |
|
|
|
Post by kovnikninehouse on Jun 18, 2018 12:50:17 GMT
So eith my paring of Irusk2 WGK Victor, 9 rockets and Ayana&Holt or Strkhov2 AC double Shock and Demo corps.
I would go with Strak2 and just be careful with my upkeeps. I would aim for the arm crackers and the Wyrds and push hard for scenario
|
|
|
|
Post by agurus on Jun 18, 2018 20:09:41 GMT
Last Sunday I played in a small Steamroller against a Krueger list with four heavies and without the battle engine. Not sure about the solos and units, but looked similar to the list above. I ran Vlad1 with rocket spam: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0f767qkWkTkU8t8r7Z7R7T7W7X7W7X7WKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand [Vladimir 1] Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Prince [+28] - Devastator [14] - Juggernaut [13] - Marauder [11] - Spriggan [17] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Widowmaker Marksman [4] Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [0(4)] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] It was my first game into Circle. My opponent went first. On top of turn four I was up on attrition, with three of my heavies still on the table and he had only Megalith and was running out of time. I lost to assassination, unfortunatelly. Was not aware of all the movement shenanigans and my positioning is still bad, lost too many winter guard to spays. Next time I would try to pick out the support solos and smaller constructs first, before taking care of the big guys. The Sentry Stone & Mannikins was not a big deal thanks to Spriggan. |
|
chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474 
|
Post by chuggyg on Jun 18, 2018 20:14:59 GMT
Anything Zerkova1 will play extremely well into this.
|
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Jun 19, 2018 7:56:29 GMT
I think I'd play my Irusk Armoured Corps list, partially on the basis that it took my Strakhov Wolves list to pieces.
Whilst Rebuke effectively neuters one Shocktrooper unit, and TK is annoying for them, I think the FFE Strike Tankers represent a hefty threat, and Energiser helps counter some of the TK stuff on jacks. Suppression Tankers can deal with Manikins easily. Battle Lust means any of my units can flatten a heavy, so the threat saturation + armour combo should hopefully be too much. That said, his control game might put me under too much scenario pressure
|
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Jun 19, 2018 12:18:51 GMT
Watch out with FFE, it will give you one shot then the woldwyrd will be able to casually remove it from the table.
Having Eilish in the list might be a good idea, he can remove rebuke and he can make Kruger pay each time he cast a spell at you.
|
|
|
|
Post by benjamini on Jun 19, 2018 13:27:30 GMT
I am a filthy traitor and actually play a Kruegar 2 list very similar to this from time to time (I don't own a Fulcrum... and yes I play a lot of factions  ), so I can offer both a Khador and a bit of a Circle perspective on this. Circle Perspective:I'm not going to lie, Kruegar 2 Bones is a rough time for a lot of lists. Usually when I play the list though, I'm looking to use that battery of control effects to win the game on scenario, so a list that can impede me doing that is going to be a bad time. The list really likes to see a large number of points invested in a minimal number of targets (ie, lots of heavies) because those are some of the highest impact telekinesis targets, and Lightning storms can offer a pretty good field of "Light Infantry can't go here", and the windstorm makes things awkward for shooting infantry. So that's actually a pretty wide range of coverage. Telekinesis only has an 8" range as well, and can only be cast once by each heavy, so there comes a point where it can't really efficiently control heavy infantry. So I think MoW might be a good way to go. Unfortunately the list ALSO has Rebuke, so if you want to go this route, it is important to keep some way of stripping this (or preventing it from ending up on the unit in the first place) in place. Two last important details: -Wolds generally have a lower fury threshold than living beasts, and (beyond Stoneshapers) the list doesn't really buff their damage output -When Kruegar casts windstorm, his range is only 14". After the first couple turns his beasts will usually get ahead of him, so long range shooting (most heavies, rockets, etc) will still be able to draw a bead on the Heavies if you want to go that route. Khador PerspectiveI really think that a good way to go about this is playing the MoW card, particularly with a caster who doesn't use a large number of upkeeps to get the most out of their infantry. I really think the MoW theme is the best option in general that Khador has into this list. Sorscha 3 comes to mind as a pretty good option to play into this because a lot of her support happens outside of upkeeps. Shock troopers can't be pushed by the feat(but will unfortunately be slowed down), so they are only really afraid of rebuke. Just don't cast Iron flesh if you're worried about the wyrds. TK can be used to place shock troopers out of shield wall, so I would keep this in mind while positioning your troops in order to minimize the damage from that. If one of your jacks gets TK'd away, keep in mind that giving it stoke the flames and running will (usually) still get it in melee range of the Heavy that cast TK to trigger flank with the Infantry. As some others have identified above, Zerkova 1 is probably the strongest candidate Khador has to play into this list specifically. Banishing Ward means that one model/unit can just give no firetrucks and go about doing what it would normally do as far as control goes. Cloud walls can be used to prevent the wyrds from drawing a bead. Ghostly can help deal with any forests that crop up. You've got options here! |
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Jun 19, 2018 14:33:18 GMT
Sadly Zerkova1 doesn't have Banishing ward anymore, although considering the woldwyrd on the table I'm not sure how useful it would be. The cloudwall is a thing though, yes there will be a source of guidance in the Kruger2 list, but it means only one model does work on kruger's side of the table as long as that is up. I think Zerkova's feat can also buy one turn of work without her needing to cast he clouds. Zerkova1 is also immune to TK and to the crit stationnary gun from the fulcrum. She can also hex blast Rebuke, yeah she might damage the target, but it's probably for the best if it means being able to go in shield wall or charge.
The game will be a grindfest though, I fully expect a game between Zerkova1 and Kruger2 to go up to turn 7 unless someone derps and get their caster killed.
|
|
|
|
Post by benjamini on Jun 19, 2018 15:04:28 GMT
wait, she lost Banishing Ward? What rock have I been living under!? I guess that does keep you safe from the wyrds, and hex blast removes can remove any rebukes that happen. So that's something at least. Yeah, I find that my normal games with most Khador casters end turn 4-5, but when I play Kruegar into a caster like Zerkova it's usually 6 or 7.
edit: MK III apparently is the rock I have been living under. I guess I need to look places other than Vlads, Old Witches, Butchers and Sorschas from time to time |
|
|
|
Post by bearstronaut on Jun 19, 2018 15:29:10 GMT
As someone who used to play Circle a lot, Kreuger generally hates RNG 14+ guns more than anything. If you can even force him to camp fury instead of spending his stack on feat turn, then you're in a decent spot. It's not the worst time walk feat by far. If you saw him in any other theme, I would say WGK could actually play a decent game here, but the amount of wolds walking around are just too much for even rockets to deal with.
Conquest/Victor is very good here, even if Kreuger catches them in feat and Windstorm they will likely be able to shoot at what they want anyway. The wolds will be able to whittle a colossal down, but they won't be able to do it quickly or efficiently.
Of all the themes to bring, Armored Corps will be most suited to fight him. Kreuger has the weakest Rebuke in the game right now, as the Gallows Groves are very predictable arc nodes. You might get slapped with a Rebuke on Turn 3 or 4, but in the early turns it should be easy to avoid. I am going to assume the list doesn't have anti-spell tech for now and so the answer to spells like this is threat saturation. If you have plenty of MOW units, then Rebuke can't affect all of them at once. For example if you bring two Shocktrooper units then you can simply have the Rebuked unit fall back and have the rest of the list push forward. Even with AC, you will have more than enough bodies to contest with to afford keeping a unit back to chew on Rebuke for a while. Hopefully you can apply enough pressure to the point that Kreuger2 doesn't want the front Shocktroopers in Shield Wall anymore, or he doesn't want Demos charging, at which point you can press up your fresh second unit of Shocks.
Caster who can naturally break Rebuke off a unit are Zerkova1 or any Butcher with Ruin. I like Zerkova1 in AC a lot, and I think her kit is perfectly fine for dealing with Kreuger.
I generally don't like spending points on support models like Orin or Eilish, but if you see Kreuger2 a lot then there is no better tool against him than Eilish. Disbinding is very strong for keeping Rebuke off the table, of course, but Arcane Void is where the real money is here. Kreuger needs to be constantly active to get his full value, taking a couple D3 points of damage over the course of the game can make an assassination run on him go from a 30% to an 80% very easily. Not only that, but it affects the Wolds using geomancy or casting animi too!
|
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Jun 19, 2018 18:12:30 GMT
wait, she lost Banishing Ward? What rock have I been living under!? I guess that does keep you safe from the wyrds, and hex blast removes can remove any rebukes that happen. So that's something at least. Yeah, I find that my normal games with most Khador casters end turn 4-5, but when I play Kruegar into a caster like Zerkova it's usually 6 or 7.
edit: MK III apparently is the rock I have been living under. I guess I need to look places other than Vlads, Old Witches, Butchers and Sorschas from time to time To be faire, these are very comfy rocks to live under. I know Zerkova1 legion of steel is suppose to be a thing, but I haven't really been interested in playing her before Man O War CID, now that this stuff is out, I'm really excited by the idea of playing her. |
|
), so I can offer both a Khador and a bit of a Circle perspective on this.