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Post by DoctorGandalf on Jun 10, 2018 15:30:09 GMT
Hi all, Recently, my friend and I were playing a game of the new man o war versus my trollbloods (lists below). About halfway through, right after my charge turn took out about half his shock troopers, we paused and spent a while discussing what he could have done to have prevented that. I was rolling incredibly hot, but even so we both agreed champs are incredibly tough for man o war to face. So, I pose the question to you folks: what is khador's answer to double champs? Thanks for any advice! Trollbloods conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0a4N0r9Djq6G6G6O0o0l0miTiTcATrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Band of Heroes [Madrak 1] Madrak Ironhide, Thornwood Chieftain [+29] - Dire Troll Bomber [19] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Trollkin Champion Hero [5] Kriel Warriors (max) [11] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] Trollkin Warders (min) [10] Man o War conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0T79f8l47Ml07M7Qgd7QgdKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps !!! Your army contains pre-release entries. [Irusk 2] Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27] - Victor [34] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [0(5)] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer [0(5)] Man-O-War Bombardiers (max) [16] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [0(4)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Edit: I remembered his exact army. |
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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 10, 2018 15:52:55 GMT
My most recent game, i brought Irusk1 and a unit of bombadiers. Combined with the feat, aiming, and mini feat i was able to easily 1 round 4/5 of his troll champions and leave skaldi on a couple boxes. 6 POW 16 shots at rat 11 with pow 9 blast damage was savage. POW 9 doesn't seem like a lot, until you realize champions clump up and you roll 3/4 blasts for each shot.
But as for your match, shocks are probably not the best against champions. Eapecially if they don't have access to ironflesh, and the attack volume of champs really hampers the efectiveness of irusk2 tough.
Shooting is effective and i've found kayazy eliminators are pretty annoying for champa to deal with. Good at blocking charge lanes.
I've also played vs madrak 1 with B3 WGK. The WGI sprays are another good abuse of champions being clumped up, being able to make 15ish spray rolls with just a couple WGI is greay. Then B3 himself is a huge threat, if they get within flashing blade range 1 or 2 flashing blades will wipe the unit.
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Post by DoctorGandalf on Jun 10, 2018 16:10:02 GMT
Thanks for the response! Irusk1 does look a fair bit more lethal than 2. I really like battle lust, I take it that'd be good on some demo corps? His feat is a little weakened by take down, but against the bomber is amazing. Would a unit of shocktroopers under iron flesh and retaliatory strike from atanos be functional, or do you still think they're not effective enough against champs? Also, due to even ground I tend to keep my champs spread out until the charge, and try to shield guard as much as I can with the warders. Would the second unit of bombadiers prove effective in that case, so I can't shield guard but a third of his attacks? I'll have to recommend kayazy, I hadn't thought about being able to rush and block charges. We discussed the potential of vlad1 rockets, but didn't talk about B3. Normally he plays his casters far in the back (used to he play protectorate so he's used to old man stats), so it'd be a big change to go with a forward caster. I'll bring it up to him, see if he has the models for it. Thanks again, I'll share your recommendations with him  |
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Post by sand20go on Jun 10, 2018 16:20:08 GMT
Have to study it more but feels very much like my Vlad2 AC list would be fine. Shocks, bombers, DC.
Probably Try to get the big round of shooting with the HOF Bombers first. Dice -6 probably requires 3 shots a pair of Champs. Thats OK, I got 12 ;-). If you haven't feated, Then, Feat, Hot swap Hand of Fate over to the demo Corp, Mini Feat with them and got to town on the remainder. Sure they MIGHT die - but Def 13; Arm 19; 8 boxes, band of brothers AND retailatory strike with Ha seems like a "thing". They SHOULD be able to hit so hard that you don't have worry about retal strike from the trollkin hero's bubble
If you HAVE feated I think I might try to weather it out. Feat and put the Shocks up there at ARM 24 with Retailiatory. Feels like at Dice -12 on the charge (right) should be perfectly fine. I SHOULD be able to hit most of them as they come in. Dead Champions and just a bit of paint scratched on the Shocks.
Feels like if I do this right I should have a full unit of Shocks, most of the bombers, a Conquest/Viktor and probably a couple of DC against 2-3 champs and then the Battlegroup. Feeling perfectly fine with that if I can keep a fully buffed Mauler off my Conquest...and even then I am not sure it kills it.
Also Irusks into Band of Brothers is "bad" You are neutering a huge part of his game by denying tough. Nothing says "I love you" than no knockdown tough.
Finally, he doesn't have Kovniks. MUST have Kovniks. I also with Irusk2 have better FFE hot swaps - 2 suppressor tankers with 3 dice POW 14 spray feels like the right choice.
So if not Vlad2 make the changes on the tanker load out. Will be an immediate QoL improvements
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Post by DoctorGandalf on Jun 10, 2018 16:55:17 GMT
That list sounds incredibly strong against champs. The demo corps especially sound lethal to the world, a pow 19 charge drop low should easily take out a champ each--and HoF means they'll definitely be hitting. That would also be super good against my other list, Power of Dhunia under Jarl.
Would you CRA with the bombadiers? They're at natural dice -4, but RAT 6 means they're hitting on 8s, and blast damage at dice - 11 is a long shot. But then if they do CRA I can shield guard with the warders.
Shocks at 24 would definitely be a great tarpit. Assuming stone aura gives out +1 STR, champs would still be dice - 11 so averaging half a shock each if they're lucky.
I'll definitely mention the lack of kovniks. Would you say double or just the one? Desperate pace means he'll outthreat by an inch on the shocks, but I really like the idea of 11" threat demo corps.
My one question is how does this list handle my jammer infantry? I can prevent arcing fire into my champs by keeping them close to the kriel warriors, and they also slow down the demo corps of destruction a bit longer for my champs to get a charge of their own (potentially before the minifeat if I time it right). So far, the kriel warriors have been really successful at their job, but maybe I'm over valuing them.
Thanks for the list and tactics!
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Post by sand20go on Jun 10, 2018 18:08:38 GMT
That list sounds incredibly strong against champs. The demo corps especially sound lethal to the world, a pow 19 charge drop low should easily take out a champ each--and HoF means they'll definitely be hitting. That would also be super good against my other list, Power of Dhunia under Jarl. Would you CRA with the bombadiers? They're at natural dice -4, but RAT 6 means they're hitting on 8s, and blast damage at dice - 11 is a long shot. But then if they do CRA I can shield guard with the warders. Shocks at 24 would definitely be a great tarpit. Assuming stone aura gives out +1 STR, champs would still be dice - 11 so averaging half a shock each if they're lucky. I'll definitely mention the lack of kovniks. Would you say double or just the one? Desperate pace means he'll outthreat by an inch on the shocks, but I really like the idea of 11" threat demo corps. My one question is how does this list handle my jammer infantry? I can prevent arcing fire into my champs by keeping them close to the kriel warriors, and they also slow down the demo corps of destruction a bit longer for my champs to get a charge of their own (potentially before the minifeat if I time it right). So far, the kriel warriors have been really successful at their job, but maybe I'm over valuing them. Thanks for the list and tactics! MAYBE I would CRA. MAYBE. With Hand of fate not sure. As you point out Dice -6. But it is such volume and once I get one that is BTB down I am better. It depends on my minifeat options (I think). Missed your Kriels. I think I am simply trying to light them all of fire/critical deve them around depending on Conquest/Victor load out.. That assumes I stick with the Strike Tanker in my Vlad2 list. If I swap for supression I got all the chaff clearing I likely need. If you use your Kriels to screen (big troll BLOB) I think that is OK - again, see how wonderful critical devestation could be. Sure it is fishing for criticals but basically one roll of the dice and I essentially come close to winning. |
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 10, 2018 19:00:35 GMT
Champs charge 9" afaik.
Bombers shoot 18", shocks shoot 12", Victor shoots super far.
The correct way to play that mow army against that troll army would be:
- Victor shoots and tries to set champs on fire
- Bombers with FFE go forward and shoot, 2 man CRAs.
- Irusk rotates FFE on second bombers, pops feat
- second bombers unit shoots with FFE and CRAs
- shocks go through bombers and screen them
Feat should give 1 more turn to shoot, just repeat.
If bombers reach a champ unit without moving they aim, pop minifeat and shoot it with 2 man CRAs.
If trolls run to engage you Battlelust the bombers, charge and try pulling off quick works. Then shocks go through bombers and screen them.
Irusk2 has no way to negate tough so aim for as much attack volume as possible to overload tough rolls.
High def can be negated with CRAs, blast scatter autohits and FFE.
If one wants to change list to beat trolls infantry better, one needs to take tough negaters and caster that can help hit like V2/V1.
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Post by DoctorGandalf on Jun 10, 2018 20:30:49 GMT
sand20go: crit devastation is a good point, I might suggest switching to a conquest since otherwise I can protective aura avoid the continuous fire damage. I'll also mention the suppression tanker, I've always been a huge fan of covering fire personally. @smoothciminal: Hadn't considered keeping shocks behind bombardiers and charging forward, he normally keeps them in shield wall up front. Charges (plus assault!) would definitely help take out champs; he's been struggling otherwise to do lasting damage thanks to sanguine bond. I've also noticed he hasn't been hot swapping FFE all that much, if he sticks with Irusk2 instead of vlad2 I'll mention that to him.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 10, 2018 22:31:07 GMT
Champs charge 9" afaik. Bombers shoot 18", shocks shoot 12", Victor shoots super far. The correct way to play that mow army against that troll army would be: - Victor shoots and tries to set champs on fire - Bombers with FFE go forward and shoot, 2 man CRAs. - Irusk rotates FFE on second bombers, pops feat - second bombers unit shoots with FFE and CRAs - shocks go through bombers and screen them Feat should give 1 more turn to shoot, just repeat. If bombers reach a champ unit without moving they aim, pop minifeat and shoot it with 2 man CRAs. If trolls run to engage you Battlelust the bombers, charge and try pulling off quick works. Then shocks go through bombers and screen them. Irusk2 has no way to negate tough so aim for as much attack volume as possible to overload tough rolls. High def can be negated with CRAs, blast scatter autohits and FFE. If one wants to change list to beat trolls infantry better, one needs to take tough negaters and caster that can help hit like V2/V1. FYI - FFE is Model. It would be UBER to have it unit (and broken). So you definately can ding things up with ONE but not two....UNLESS what you are saying is a 6 man CRA - which WILL do some good blast damage ;-) (because you CAN CRA off one guy and blast damage is buffed with CRA the way PP does order of mathematical operations |
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Post by DoctorGandalf on Jun 10, 2018 22:58:22 GMT
Good catch, I think he was doing six man CRAs centered on the CA. Which can get some work done on the blast, pow 13 boosted can kill a champ or two fairly easily.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 11, 2018 0:05:36 GMT
Good catch, I think he was doing six man CRAs centered on the CA. Which can get some work done on the blast, pow 13 boosted can kill a champ or two fairly easily. Oh absolutely. Three dice. Put a mark on things if they are a bunch in range. |
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