Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Jun 5, 2018 19:21:03 GMT
On the subject of what could change, I don't think they need a UA or solo, Steelheads are meant to be 'cheap, numerous and effective', they are the back-to-basics merc infantry of the Iron Kingdoms, they don't need fancy UAs, they just need to drop down to 12 or 13 points for a full unit. I have to agree with this sentiment.
However, I would still like the option of a decent UA, but more importantly, a WA, or better yet, a selection of different types of WA to provide flavor as to where the unit comes from.
Different weapon attachments would be great, but I kinda want a generic CA that can go onto any small based steelhead unit.
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Post by Sarcastastic on Jun 5, 2018 19:40:57 GMT
I've always wanted another Steelhead unit too, though I don't really know what niche would need filling. More that I just want one more than anything. I also wouldn't be mad about more named officers like Nick and Stannis, though those two could both use some touch ups. I haven't used Nick since Mk2 when you threw Surefoot on him to make the Halberdier Deathball. 17/18 against charges on Damiano feat turn with vengeance was a great time.
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Fang
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by Fang on Jun 5, 2018 20:53:58 GMT
I usually have 1x or 2x min units in my Fiona list and my Denny1 list. 6 shots for 8 points makes them cheap snipers for Fiona (against the affliction target they become pseudo rat7 auto damage if they fail to damage [better than actual sniper]), and their cost makes up a bit for their lack of range.
Cheaper on the full unit maybe, but I dunno about any real changes for me. I like my steelheads straightforward and cheap for the most part.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 6, 2018 5:14:32 GMT
All war tempered does is grant a cra into melee, but with rerolls and aiming and a coind damiano fixes the problem Magnus and osrum(i think) brings snipe. Damiano brings both a buff and dice addition. Ashlynn brings a massive dice fixing feat, caine 3, constance 1, and others bring def debuffs or feats that move around models. If the primary argument is something like. ... they need to unjam halbadiers... mercs have alot of caster options that help with that. What they need is the ability to optimize their ranged damage potential in a faction that has no ability to boost or add damage dice to ranged attacks outside of battle group models. Shooting more accuratly into a jammed unit means nothing if your shot lacks the punch to kill the target on average dice. So any unit jamming with arm 18 or above would still be just as effective with accuracy or not. Maximizing ranged damage is what the stealheads need and a reroll damage ability or a auto wound ability would make them viable more as a unit than any other buff. It's time for a story. It starts with a mistake. Once, a part-time merc player called me was building in Irregulars (just after it came out). He wanted a Steelhead heavy army + Alexia1. Damiano, Halberdiers, Alexia, A&H etc... Stannis was taken as a free solo (there's the mistake).
Turns out that Steelhead Riflemen + Deadeye + Coin + A&H + Ragman near the Halberdiers have plenty of punch when shooting models in melee with the Halberdiers. POW17 shooting is punchy. No need for boosting or additional dice, and better than the melee potential of the Halberdiers who were engaged (both for accuracy and hitting power).
And the moral of the story is... Mercs can already get the damage potential of shooting quite high (given that shooting is meant to be less powerful than melee generally). The shooting can be powerful, but is fairly short-ranged. The problem with short-ranged shooting is that jam units can prevent it from happening by engaging either the shooting models, or the models screening them. Give shorter-ranged shooting a way to deal with that kind of jamming and it becomes better.
Making more powerful shooting available when shooting into melee gives a niche that isn't present in most other factions, it fits with the idea of Steelheads being trained to work together to achieve more than they can individually, and it exploits the available solos/units that mercs have to raise the damage potential.
But at present shooting into melee doesn't work so well without Damiano because without CRA the Rifles aren't that accurate against the target in melee penalty (it's coin + Deadeye that tips it for Damiano, not one or the other, and no other caster comes close). War Tempered would let every caster get an accuracy boost with them in a wider range of scenarios, both via the CRA rule itself, and then combining with Combined Arms.
The issue is that this works much better in Irregulars than Kingmaker (as you can access all the damage buffers). But I think I'm OK with that. War Tempered would be a small buff for Kingmaker lists, but bigger in Irregulars.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Jun 6, 2018 5:21:00 GMT
left ouutta dis conservation is the fact that a box for Steeheads was recently released that had no command attachment so there is not one likely in the works anytime soon
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Post by onijet01 on Jun 6, 2018 7:09:03 GMT
I dont dis agree with that but here is the larger problem. Stacking potential. So what seems to be the argument is accuracy vs damage And this is the issue. Themes play the unit diffrently. So examples Kingsmaker requites massive amounts of points inorder to crank out damage with the Steelhead Rifflemen. As you stated A&H (8pts), Ragman & Halbadiers (0/4pts & 7/11pts), Gorman (0/4pts) are potential costs to make a single unit do more ranged damage. So in your example you spent a miminum of 15pts (two units and a free solo) along with Warcaster Resourses to make a single unit shoot for pow 17 shots. Sorry but thats just a bad argument. As outside of the coin ability the same exact model counts can affect any other ranged unit or models just as good. And yet you argue that they need a accuracy buff so they have a nich at shooting into melee? Im gonna call BS. On that. It is a valid opinnion but... Irridian Skirmishers already have the accuracy into melee problem solved woth thwir own built in ability. Hammerfall Highsheilds have the nich of being super armored guns. Both of those models work better into irregulars with all the same buffs and stand a more survivable chance. Yet steelhead Rifflemen should have a damage ability not accuracy because for the themes they are allowed in one lacks any damage buff and is in desperate need of needing it for meta curve. The argument of them being fine because of a theme is BS because if a buff can be applied to litteraly any other unit its not a viable excuse to use as why the unit is good. Its a argument of ignorance and misunderstanding. So in irregulars riffleman can be good at the cost between 15 and 27 points worth of models DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE GOOD. Spending a potential 1/4th of your list to make one unit okay at damage if stupid.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 6, 2018 8:56:46 GMT
The argument of them being fine because of a theme is BS because if a buff can be applied to litteraly any other unit its not a viable excuse to use as why the unit is good. Its a argument of ignorance and misunderstanding. No, it isn't.
Context is for Kings.
You can't consider the unit in a vacuum. And that includes themes. They are part of how lists are built and units function. Yes, other units can use those buffs too. That's great and I don't disagree. But a point was made about CRA into melee being worthless because the shooting isn't powerful enough. My point was that if you really need high POW shooting against jamming units, Steelheads can provide it (at least in Irregulars), using the tools that merc lists already have available and often include in those lists. More powerful shooting isn't necessary. Desirable to some perhaps, but not necessary.
As I thought I made clear in both my posts, I think Steelhead Riflemen should play up the idea of Steelheads all working together to achive more than they would individually, rather than just being more powerful shooters. A shooting into melee option is useful, seems to be fairly different to what most shooting units do and fairly characterful for the combined arms feel of Steelheads. Those are good reasons in it's favour.
Shooting into melee works well in combination with Stannis and Halberdiers. Halberdiers are good at jamming themselves, and at screening. Adding Riflemen lets them be unjammed and move on again. It works better with Riflemen and Halberdiers in combination than any other units because of Stannis (no LoS problems - hence why my first suggestion for improvement was about Stannis himself). The only shooting units we have that can come close for accuracy are the Idrians, and that's dependent on your opponents not being able to play around prey (variable - depends on both your opponent and the range of suitable prey in their list targets).
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Post by onijet01 on Jun 6, 2018 9:15:04 GMT
Well i can agree to those points. But what if we had a solo who would give a stealhead unit the (star action) of ...
1. Black Penny or War Tempered Or
2. Persition Strike
That would fit both themes as in irregulars you have the unjamming option and in kings maker you have a damage buff option.
Sense it also works for the caverly models as well he wouldnt be just a riffleman support mode ether
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Jun 6, 2018 10:24:25 GMT
I think the riflemen are fine as they are but I think Steelheads in general could use a bump, but since Damiano exists I have a hard time seeing how to do it.
If we're wishlisting I'd like to see Steelheads get the same treatment that trenchers got, a CID that leads to a theme force, a few solos, a new unit (weapon crew of some sort?) and/or a CA or WA that changes the role of an existing unit.
On a smaller scale I'd like to see a Houseguard Thane type Steelhead officer to buff the existing units.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Jun 6, 2018 11:29:35 GMT
...Hammerfall Highsheilds have the nich of being super armored guns. Both of those models work better into irregulars with all the same buffs and stand a more survivable chance... heh, you're comparing them to highshields? Alright now there's a problem. Compared to the high shields the rifle dudez are AMAZING! When I had a set and played them, they were more likely to get where I needed them, didn't cost me a free slot for their UA, and even then the Rifle Dudez is slightly cheaper any way. Yes they require our damage buffin solos and stuff, and yes they require the full boat... you know what else requires that? Pirates, Drudges, Gunmages, heck even the Forge Guard have only really come into their own since dwarf recursion became a thing. The thing I find with mercs, is that our infantry is TERRIBLE... unless you go all in on it. Any of the infantry that is actually "good" is usually part of another faction (see partisans) or is a Character unit that is usually still to over costed to some degree. I think the Rifle guys are fine, IF you go with Damiano, Stannis, some of our Damage buffs, and at least Halbs... which sounds a lot like needing to take 3 Solos, Press Gangers, and even then usually a caster to hand out a buff for pirates.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 6, 2018 11:32:31 GMT
Here is my unsolicited advice on what they should change:
Halberdiers: No change
Riflemen: Reduce cost to 8/13
Cavalry: Give their axes 2" Rng
Stannis: cut Cleave, replace with Rapid Strike, give him Weaponmaster
Sergeant Nic: Change his Leadership Wall of Steel to affect all Steelheads
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Post by jagius021 on Jun 6, 2018 12:52:31 GMT
I liked back in mk2 themes that sometimes, taking multiples of things, would reduce their cost. If that could incorporate in so that you gained a benefit from limiting yourself by doubling down it would help balance the opportunity cost. Otherwise yeah, just make them cheaper. I often take croes over them as my ranged option.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Jun 6, 2018 13:07:50 GMT
I actually really like the idea of a "Steelhead" attachment who gave a rule that would be something like "When in melee, this unit is not considered engaged or engaging, and any units engaging it are considered to not be in combat" (obviously worded better so it doesn't break literally everything). It would let the Rifleman shoot in melee (if attached to them) or the rifleman shoot into groups that the Halberdiers were in melee with.
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Post by fallenexile on Jun 6, 2018 14:42:51 GMT
Here is my unsolicited advice on what they should change: Halberdiers: No change Riflemen: Reduce cost to 8/13 Cavalry: Give their axes 2" Rng Stannis: cut Cleave, replace with Rapid Strike, give him Weaponmaster Sergeant Nic: Change his Leadership Wall of Steel to affect all Steelheads I would add that Dr Nic also extend his Tough bubble to his cmd range. About Stannis, personally, I really hate that the ability to ignore LoS is on a model that I feel would rather be in danger on the front lines and cannot be screened by the units he wants to buff the most.
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Post by Azuresun on Jun 6, 2018 14:49:25 GMT
On the subject of what could change, I don't think they need a UA or solo, Steelheads are meant to be 'cheap, numerous and effective', they are the back-to-basics merc infantry of the Iron Kingdoms, they don't need fancy UAs, they just need to drop down to 12 or 13 points for a full unit. With that said, there is sooooo much room for a Steelhead UA or solo with some sort of battle plans. Faction buffs being standardised opens up a lot of space--but on the other hand, Damiano kind of holds the unit back from getting anything nice, as any buff must be considered on a RAT 7, POW 13 unit. I'd be quite happy to lose Money Shot (which was only ever there to solve the Cygnar Problem of Mk2) to get something caster-independent.
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