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Post by paradox on May 31, 2018 15:40:38 GMT
Alten Ashley, Eiryss1, Kell, Gunmage sniper solo. Just for starters?
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 31, 2018 16:25:21 GMT
Well, I thought we were talking Harby + monks here, deadly shot doesn't finish the job.
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Post by macdaddy on May 31, 2018 16:55:46 GMT
Alten Ashley, Eiryss1, Kell, Gunmage sniper solo. Just for starters? I am talking about martyrdom...not just tough...Alten is one example, but even aiming he will need hard 8's.... Deadly shot does not solve martyrdom. Also also, all of those solos struggle to hit the monks even while aiming. Even Eiriss 1 (natural rat 9) needs 7's to hit when aiming making it a coin flip.
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Post by gargs454 on May 31, 2018 17:46:34 GMT
I'm not going to pretend that I am as knowledgeable as everyone else here, but did I miss the situation where Harby and Monks were dominating the scene in Mk III? I mean, I've thought she was good in Mk III even if she wasn't nearly as good as her Mk II version, but its not like she's been wiping the floor with the competition. Same with monks. They are definitely good pieces, and monks are even better with Harby for obvious reasons, but it would clearly seem to be the case that its not the end of times when Harby is dropped.
Now, will she obviously be better with the proposed changes? Of course! Do I think she was more in need of love than some of our other casters? No. Do I think these changes are suddenly going to make her unstoppable? No, they'll just make her show up more often. I will agree that she is (particularly assuming the proposed changes go through) among our best casters at the moment, though even with the changes I don't think she'll be clear cut our best caster, just a strong option. Warmahordes has always been a bit of a Paper-Rock-Scissors game which is a big part of the reason (I assume) for the multi-list format. Its going to be pretty rare in my experience that you can grab any semi decent list in your faction and be able to go up against anything in the game on any board layout and not have to worry. Most lists are going to have their bad matchups. To be fair, Harby will create more bad matchups for her opponents than a lot of our casters will, which is again, one of the reasons I was surprised that she was targeted for an upgrade when casters like Feora 1/2 and Reznik 1 were not. But she's still not a Boogeyman in my experience.
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Post by Nahualli on May 31, 2018 18:20:12 GMT
I agree that there are ways to counter her, but the most problematic aspect of her presence is the amount of frustration and bad play experience it can cause. Is she going to bend the meta like Una2 pre-nerf? Maybe not, but I remember one of the excuses used to nerf her and the griffons was because of the bad play experience. At this point is too late to address Harby, since CID is gone, but I hope to see here more in the table and see all the other players tilt on tournaments, just to see her fall like Una2 after all the whining.
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kaernak
Junior Strategist
Either pray to Menoth or feel his fury. You'll burn either way.
Posts: 172
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Post by kaernak on May 31, 2018 18:28:14 GMT
I think Harby is strong. I do not think she is near as busted as Una2 was. So many things have grievous wounds and other answers. Outright RFP and other such things. If she starts face rolling everyone then I would be fine with her being tweaked. I just don't want to talk about it now and PP make a snap decision.
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Post by macdaddy on May 31, 2018 19:23:14 GMT
I think Harby is strong. I do not think she is near as busted as Una2 was. So many things have grievous wounds and other answers. Outright RFP and other such things. If she starts face rolling everyone then I would be fine with her being tweaked. I just don't want to talk about it now and PP make a snap decision. RFP has no effect on her toolkit to my knowledge. Grievous wounds and healing denial is more common than it used to be, but not nearly as widespread as some people seem to think it is. Outside of cryx and maybe crucible guard, there are not a wide array of options to put healing denial into a list.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2018 20:35:31 GMT
Grievous wounds and healing denial is more common than it used to be, but not nearly as widespread as some people seem to think it is. Outside of cryx and maybe crucible guard, there are not a wide array of options to put healing denial into a list. Just a little something overarching - A mechanic/faction can force it's prey out of the meta.
If there are sufficient saturation in the meta that do shut down or counter a certain caster/list/etc it could be artificially kept out of the high level meta. Maybe Crucible guard can make that happen.
So in short Harby might just not be a good answer in the near-ish future. We'll have to see. If she's not and she is a problem it can be addressed. But it going to take the whole "let the meta work itself out" time table first.
She does seem plainly strong. But I don't think it's the end of everything just yet.
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kaernak
Junior Strategist
Either pray to Menoth or feel his fury. You'll burn either way.
Posts: 172
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Post by kaernak on May 31, 2018 20:57:54 GMT
I just want Menoth to have nice things again. That is all. We have a couple of really great lists that are sort of outdone by their counterparts in other factions. No one really has a list like Harbinger and I'd like something unique to stay with our faction.
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Post by paradox on May 31, 2018 21:00:47 GMT
If we’re talking about a monk threatening a caster by being stanced and in melee with the caster, while the caster is in Awe and the monk is Martyrable, and this is the negative play, then I think your regular opponent is A-A-Ron, cause he done messed up.
If instead we’re discussing a monk that makes no attacks cause he’s stancing in Martyr range, then there are lots of ways to ignore that piece, or make Harbie pay tons of life to keep it. If thats negative play, try playing vs any Haley, or Cryx.
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Post by paradox on May 31, 2018 21:10:27 GMT
I think Harby is strong. I do not think she is near as busted as Una2 was. So many things have grievous wounds and other answers. Outright RFP and other such things. If she starts face rolling everyone then I would be fine with her being tweaked. I just don't want to talk about it now and PP make a snap decision. RFP has no effect on her toolkit to my knowledge. Grievous wounds and healing denial is more common than it used to be, but not nearly as widespread as some people seem to think it is. Outside of cryx and maybe crucible guard, there are not a wide array of options to put healing denial into a list. Play Caine2. You literally pick which models cant get Martyred turn over turn. Play Grave diggers. 2x express teams. You get boosted RAT5 + aim shots each turn to stop Martyrdom. RAT+ aim boosted if you add Finn. Effective boosted RAT7-8 reliable hits monks, and at dice +2 it easily oneshots a monk per turn each.
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Post by macdaddy on May 31, 2018 22:23:24 GMT
I wouldn’t say Boosted 10’s reliably hit them. It’s a coin flip.
You are pointing out super specific answers again. I’m not disregarding those answers, but my point is, across the meta, those answers are not as widespread as people are leading on.
In general, Cygnar is probably a no fly zone for Harby anyway and your pairing should compensate for that (durst with the new cinerators may be a viable alternative.
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Post by cgdeth on May 31, 2018 22:23:45 GMT
I just want Menoth to have nice things again. That is all. We have a couple of really great lists that are sort of outdone by their counterparts in other factions. No one really has a list like Harbinger and I'd like something unique to stay with our faction. Is Amon not pants shitingly good with CM? I suppose he might be out preformed by cryx BI?
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Post by paradox on May 31, 2018 22:25:58 GMT
I wouldn’t say Boosted 10’s reliably hit them. It’s a coin flip. You are pointing out super specific answers again. I’m not disregarding those answers, but my point is, across the meta, those answers are not as widespread as people are leading on. In general, Cygnar is probably a no fly zone for Harby anyway and your pairing should compensate for that (durst with the new cinerators may be a viable alternative. Sure, ok, whatever.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 31, 2018 22:38:27 GMT
Alten Ashley, Eiryss1, Kell, Gunmage sniper solo. Just for starters? I am talking about martyrdom...not just tough...Alten is one example, but even aiming he will need hard 8's.... Deadly shot does not solve martyrdom. Also also, all of those solos struggle to hit the monks even while aiming. Even Eiriss 1 (natural rat 9) needs 7's to hit when aiming making it a coin flip. Mac, you're better than this, please stop. Here's your list of Grievous: A Absylonia, Terror of Everblight Alten Ashley B Barnabas, Lord of Blood Blood of Martyrs Bloodweaver Night Witch C Caine's Hellslingers Captain Aiakos Captain Allister Caine Captain Maxwell Finn D Desecrator Drake MacBain F Farrow Bone Grinders Fiona the Black G Garryth, Blade of Retribution General Gerlak Slaughterborn Grotesque Assassin K Kromac, Champion of the Wurm L Lord Assassin Morghoul M Madrak Ironhide, World Ender Man-o-War Strike Tanker P Primus Jalaam Proteus R Retaliator S Saeryn, Omen of Everblight Satyxis Blood Witches Satyxis Blood Witches:Blood Hag (CA) Stalker T Tharn Bloodweavers Trencher Express Team Twilight Sisters And this is just with the actual keyword. There's also gallows groves, the entire grymkin faction because of their BE and that one arcana, and probably more I can't come up with in all of 12 seconds. Then, of course, there's interplay and soft counters or answers well beyond turning off martyrdom. Anyone considering Harbinger strong is being smart, because she is. Anyone who can't find something to do about it is likely looking in the wrong spots.
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