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Post by macdaddy on Apr 15, 2017 1:26:34 GMT
To be perfectly honest, it's far easier to list our fail units than good ones. Pretty much everything is actually quite solid(given, of course, that you and/or your meta value what that unit brings). We can always discuss whether something is or isn't quite worth its points, but there's a reason the only change was High Reclaimer. Since I mentioned it, here are our flop units: Zealots* Castigators* Errants* Knight Exemplar Seneschal** Bastions Paladins* Vanquisher* Avatar* *Not actually a flop **New theme might change this I appreciate you adding in the *not actually a flop* part I've been using wreaths with Just about anyone with D-Ward and they do great. Considering thier UA is pretty meh I've found them to be a "budget screen" when you can't afford or don't want the full Idrians package. I still think they should have pathfinder but I'm going to laugh if the new theme gives them ambush
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 15, 2017 1:38:44 GMT
Bastions are actually pretty decent when you give them as much of a boost as possible. They are a lot better at holding zones than the Temple Flameguard, but they are not better on the approach. Using their standards and solos, the flameguard has a much wider, more stable formation than the "within 3 inches" that are required from the bastions; just make a "V" with Phyrrus at the point and watch your enemy shudder. On mini-feat turn, with shield wall down, you have def 13 (15 on the charge), arm 19 units that go up to def 15 (17 on charge) armor 21 with defender's ward, and Phyrrus cannot be damaged by non-magical melee OR ranged attacks as long as he's in b2b with 1. Basically, the Bastions would be awesome if the AoE of their damage transfer was increased and their armor was fixed. As it stands, you can generally only get 2, maybe 3 of them close enough to each other to transfer damage, meaning 15-20 boxes, 17 to start removing them from the field. With a larger AoE you could always have your 25 boxes of transfer damage AND heal 5 points of damage per turn. Considering that they are Exemplar models and their solo is also a jack marshal, just allowing them to form a full line would be good enough. Make a unit attachment that can give them shield wall (order), increase the AoE for damage transfer. For that, alone, I'd easily pay the 24 point cost for the full unit + Jack Marshal and even an additional 4-6 points for the attachment. I'd even pay that price if the attachment just gave them girded! Considering Skorne's Cataphract Cetrati has similar issues, I think they could learn from each other though if they combined... the cataphract Cetrati would gain blessed, magical weapons and transfer damage while the bastions would gain an additional unit (bringing them up to 6 instead of 5), shield wall (order), and tough. It would also be kind of funny because both of them believe in the annihilation of anything that isn't them, yet don't mind adapting new tactics, or even harboring those that will follow their ways, as long as it allows them to take on difficult opponents.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 15, 2017 1:51:19 GMT
To be perfectly honest, it's far easier to list our fail units than good ones. Pretty much everything is actually quite solid(given, of course, that you and/or your meta value what that unit brings). We can always discuss whether something is or isn't quite worth its points, but there's a reason the only change was High Reclaimer. Since I mentioned it, here are our flop units: Zealots* Castigators* Errants* Knight Exemplar Seneschal** Bastions Paladins* Vanquisher* Avatar* *Not actually a flop **New theme might change this I appreciate you adding in the *not actually a flop* part I've been using wreaths with Just about anyone with D-Ward and they do great. Considering thier UA is pretty meh I've found them to be a "budget screen" when you can't afford or don't want the full Idrians package. I still think they should have pathfinder but I'm going to laugh if the new theme gives them ambush I'm going to assume spellcheck didn't like "errants". However, I've found errants to be perfectly serviceable, UA and all, when used as the inexplicably durable fodder they're supposed to be rather than the shooters people want them to be. That's the Idrians now. However, the full package is 24 points and a buff: Sacrosanct, Inviolable, Defender's Ward, Thyra's stealth spell, and Penitence all work. I find having the officer's combat ability worthwhile, assault is still good, and the banner is a good first sac target, and can also be used to receive the buff in the first place (he can afford to be out of position). They remove trolls, winter guard, revenants, and light warjacks with almost equal ease, and the last man dies exactly where you tell him to.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 15, 2017 14:52:23 GMT
I tend to find Haley 2 significantly less obnoxious and stupid than other casters in the game. Her feat is still a big middle finger but She is not nearly the beast she was before. Im more in agreement with the opinion "have a lot of diversity in our options" Its what makes list building hard as we don't have these big obvious optimized combos like other factions do (read storm lances, Ferox) My problem is never with how strong the faction feels, its putting a list together that I think is the best it can get, I always feel like my lists could have substituted models lol. It took me about all of MK3 to finally get a Reznick 1 list I am fully in support of and Im still tinkering with it Please enlighten myself and the rest of us on your approach to this, apparently PoM specific, 'headache'. He plays reznik 1...possibly haley 2's biggest counter in the game. In a single ability, witch hound removes a good amount of her middle fingering. /heh....fingering //giggity ///bonus points to people who know what the slashies are on about
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Apr 15, 2017 19:20:02 GMT
As much as I love the Avatar, I kind of have to agree with you, but only because it takes quite a bit of effort to make him work and with Eye of Truth out, I can understand people not wanting to take the time to learn how to use him
You also missed out Deliverers, but I think that their inclusion in any list is a given
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Post by WolfsSOL on Apr 15, 2017 21:21:41 GMT
As much as I love the Avatar, I kind of have to agree with you, but only because it takes quite a bit of effort to make him work and with Eye of Truth out, I can understand people not wanting to take the time to learn how to use him You also missed out Deliverers, but I think that their inclusion in any list is a given to be fair delivers can be scary solo hunters when doing a 10 man CRA, but since you need the arms master for rerolls/arching and Rhoven for sight....... 25 points of just grab Nicia instead
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 15, 2017 22:14:03 GMT
I didn't miss deliverers. I take them and my meta fears them. they're terrifying to light warjacks, most high defense heavies solos, shield wall/wall of steel, and when played preoperly your opponent should never be able to reach them.
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Post by chillychinaman on Apr 15, 2017 22:14:58 GMT
People have forgotten Deliverers since right after their release back in Mk1 or so I recall being told. It's a shame, I felt they were only an errata away from being okay back in Mk2.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 15, 2017 22:42:33 GMT
mm it's actually because the artillery model can do the job just as well, plus it ignites the opponent on fire. The Deliverers can do the same when combined with the covenant (and really lay down the fire!) but then you won't be able to use the covenant for anti-spell OR steady.
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Post by marijnh on Apr 16, 2017 8:42:11 GMT
The problem with deliverers is that you can get far more results from redeemers and/or sunburst crew, and pay less points for them.
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Post by WolfsSOL on Apr 16, 2017 10:37:34 GMT
The problem with deliverers is that you can get far more results from redeemers and/or sunburst crew, and pay less points for them. oh and when you mix redeemers with Reznik/Tristan 1 you can have a lot of fun
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Apr 16, 2017 14:07:47 GMT
The problem with deliverers is that you can get far more results from redeemers and/or sunburst crew, and pay less points for them. I want to like Deliverers, I really do. I see that they have two potential jobs: That of a solo hunter, but they're far too expensive for that; and that of being a huge base hunter, but I see very few of those in my cash-strapped meta.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 16, 2017 16:20:41 GMT
ha, ha... we have a few big spenders in our meta that have lead to even the most cash strapped members purchasing at least 1 gigantic base. Warmachine/Hordes really isn't a ptw kind of game though; with a single well built army of 75 pts you can "stand a chance" against any other 75pt list. It's just so fun trying to optimize though that we find ourselves try to make the best of the best!
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Apr 16, 2017 19:19:22 GMT
The problem with deliverers is that you can get far more results from redeemers and/or sunburst crew, and pay less points for them. I want to like Deliverers, I really do. I see that they have two potential jobs: That of a solo hunter, but they're far too expensive for that; and that of being a huge base hunter, but I see very few of those in my cash-strapped meta. Try them out against non-khador/menoth heavies. it tends to actually pay off quite well. Or light warjacks, they wreck those pretty fast.
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Post by marijnh on Apr 17, 2017 16:51:56 GMT
I want to like Deliverers, I really do. I see that they have two potential jobs: That of a solo hunter, but they're far too expensive for that; and that of being a huge base hunter, but I see very few of those in my cash-strapped meta. Try them out against non-khador/menoth heavies. it tends to actually pay off quite well. Or light warjacks, they wreck those pretty fast. So do redeemers and sunbursts. And they cost less. Especially sunbursts wreak havoc on anything less than ARM 19. And Redeemers with boosted damagre rolls... I too want to like deliverers. But they just eat time on my clock, and don't do anything that other models can't do better and/or for less points.
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