Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Apr 9, 2017 22:12:51 GMT
Nope they were not. And the fact that you see them as fine greatly colors my opinions of your views of the game. Bane Lord Tartarsauce, gave them a +2 Threat Extension and +2 Hitting power. This was on top of their banner granting them Pre-nerfed Toughness and rise to ensure that they didn't suffer for their toughness. To be sure the whole package was expensive, but it was COMPLETE. Why take any other stuff when this already does everything a list could want? Hard Hitting Far Reaching, immune to most shooting and also accurate. It was similar to WGI. Alone they were questionable. But then they gained Sprays, and raised Defenses from the banner, and then with Joe hit harder where more survivable and where more accurate, And with iron flesh they effectively where of such high defense that only other stuff with dedicated high accuracy could even target them (Or auto hitting things). You think the 10.5" melee threat range Bane Thralls had with curse is far reaching? There's a reason I never put banes on the table in Mark2. They simply weren't good enough outside of the few power casters that turned them into monsters. The whole package absolutely was not complete, it was survivable and hit like a truck, but even with Tartarus's +2 movement the package was extremely slow. There's a reason that when you saw Banes in Mark2 you would see them with either Asphyxious2, Goreshade2, or 30+ with Skarre1. The first two can make use out of the Banes that die, and Skarre only needed a handful to make it alive as her kit was ridiculous enough to kill an army with a single unit. If Banes were actually complete they would have been in every Mark2 Cryx list out there, but the fact is they weren't. You had plenty of people who opted for Satyxis, Mechanithralls, & Mercenaries because they offered one of the most important things in the game, and the most important thing Banes lacked. Threat Range. Satyxis Raiders charged 14". Mechanithralls charged 9.5", but you could create 1-6 new ones that could come from anywhere ahead of the leader. Mercenaries gave us access to things like Nyss Hunters who's aiming threat range with guns is longer than the threat of charging Banes and who's charging threat is exactly the same and only hitting at 4 pow less. All of these projected threat range vastly further than the harder hitting Banes, and in a faction that has a multitude of ways to make their troops hit harder (every caster except Mortenebra & Skarre2), and very few ways to make their troops threat further, I'll take the further threating troops every time.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 10, 2017 4:01:45 GMT
I guess then we just disagree Deller.
Not that I don't see Cryx in a bad spot now. I do think Cryx deserves some love. For Both Thralls and Banes.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 10, 2017 7:47:06 GMT
Built-in Apparition is definitely bad idea - this job already being done by goreshade2. Simply giving it to banes will just make them broken. Infernal Machines brings completelty new mechanics - ambushing McThralls. Bane warriors need steals, blast dmg protection, threat extension and mat fixing. Ignore blast damage will arrive with new Battle Engine. Current minifeat is just ridiculous. It says that you should loose about half of the unit, then charge living infantry then hit it with crappy 6 mat, and then hope it has no tough. Bane Warriors have huge scary axes. Grievous Wounds on them would be just ok, both fitting their heavy-hitters role and fixing annoying issue with killing tough infantry and still it won't hurt colossals Iron Zeal would be perfect on Bane Riders. While being slow they'll be at least well-protected. Also, Flank[Banes] instead of Curse can make really nice synergy with Knights, similar to mercs Cavalry and Haliberders I agree with your first point, which is why I only suggested it on one unit per turn. It has a precedent, so I don't think that's unreasonable. I find it strange that you after your first point you then go on to say that Bane Warriors need threat extension, while situational Apparition would fix that issue pretty handily. They also definitely don't need Stealth, that's just the MK2 glasses speaking. Don't forget that the new Wraith Engine will also give them +2 ARM against shooting. ARM 17 is at least durable enough to ignore some of the more common shooting, so I think this is a good compromise. This is assuming the Wraith Engine will be allowed in the Bane theme, which I unfortunately don't see as being likely.
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Post by schostoppa1 on Apr 10, 2017 13:14:11 GMT
My hope js that banes become competitive in list building outside of theme. I see them as integral to the cryx identity (maybe mk2 bias here) so would love some viability outside of theme.
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walden
Junior Strategist
Posts: 136
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Post by walden on Apr 11, 2017 15:19:51 GMT
My hope js that banes become competitive in list building outside of theme. I see them as integral to the cryx identity (maybe mk2 bias here) so would love some viability outside of theme. I agree. I don't want them to be so good that I have to take them all the time. But I want to be able to take a good long think about what units I want to take, whether they are satyxis, thralls, or banes.
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Post by schostoppa1 on Apr 11, 2017 19:49:44 GMT
100%. they shouldnt dominate lists with bane spam. but i want a concerted thought process for my list. in theme they need to be a step above to help with the restrictions on supporr options.
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Post by whitecat on Apr 13, 2017 17:41:27 GMT
My fear is we're going to have non-Cryx players try to sabotage the CiD. What's to keep someone from making a respectful sounding but fake battle report to try and get changes they want? I saw it happen once with Grymkin where a topic turned into "nerf electo-leaps because they killed my models in this game". Even locally we have several players who don't want Cryx to gain anything positive because they don't want to lose games to them, and currently they don't have to worry about ever seeing a Cryx player in a monthly Steamroller.
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Apr 13, 2017 17:53:13 GMT
My fear is we're going to have non-Cryx players try to sabotage the CiD. What's to keep someone from making a respectful sounding but fake battle report to try and get changes they want? I saw it happen once with Grymkin where a topic turned into "nerf electo-leaps because they killed my models in this game". Even locally we have several players who don't want Cryx to gain anything positive because they don't want to lose games to them, and currently they don't have to worry about ever seeing a Cryx player in a monthly Steamroller. Devs are going to have a good batting eye for absurdity. Bad actors are going to be rare and dealt with swiftly.
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Kavrae
Junior Strategist
Posts: 182
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Post by Kavrae on Apr 13, 2017 18:17:33 GMT
My fear is we're going to have non-Cryx players try to sabotage the CiD. What's to keep someone from making a respectful sounding but fake battle report to try and get changes they want? I saw it happen once with Grymkin where a topic turned into "nerf electo-leaps because they killed my models in this game". Even locally we have several players who don't want Cryx to gain anything positive because they don't want to lose games to them, and currently they don't have to worry about ever seeing a Cryx player in a monthly Steamroller. If they're doing things properly, the devs are not going to read the battle reports as absolute authority and make changes based upon individual reports. Instead, the reports will be used to identify problem areas and POSSIBLE solutions that the devs hadn't thought of. (because be realistic - crowd sourcing will always find more diverse solutions than a small team of devs ever will, and that's a good thing) Then they implement changes based upon their own internal testing combined with multiple reports and external suggestions. Honestly, this looks like a false problem to me.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Apr 17, 2017 13:39:31 GMT
I think they did a pretty good job during the Grymkin CiD of sorting through the information, reports, and opinions and getting things to where they wanted them within the suggestions we made.
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Post by Cookielol on Apr 18, 2017 3:04:01 GMT
I feel they will do a good job of making banes extremely viable, while still making them optional to bring. I also want to hope they have something up their sleeve for Aggy1. I know she is a Battlebox warcaster, but id like to think they will introduce a subtle change to her to make her more iconic with her fellow Banes.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Apr 18, 2017 8:47:20 GMT
I feel they will do a good job of making banes extremely viable, while still making them optional to bring. I also want to hope they have something up their sleeve for Aggy1. I know she is a Battlebox warcaster, but id like to think they will introduce a subtle change to her to make her more iconic with her fellow Banes. I do kind of hope Agathia gets a little something in the CID as well. It's not that she needs a buff, I'd just like to see her change in a way that doesn't make her feel like Deneghra1 lite. Right now in my mind Shadowfall is the reason to play Agathia, any other reason you might have to play her Deneghra1 does better. I'm actually hoping she doesn't receive any direct changes, and that any changes she gets are in the form of bane support rules on other bane models. More things like Tartatus's curse or the Desecrator's accumulator that care about the fact she herself is a bane, but on pieces that actually synergize well with Agathia would do her wonders.
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Post by tiberius on Apr 18, 2017 11:26:55 GMT
It would be interesting if she had a unique curse for banes or something to make her a little more unique. I had not thought of that.
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Post by wseraphim on Apr 18, 2017 14:39:52 GMT
I'd like Flank[Banes]. Just like Aurora with angels. It will make a great use of her 14-15'' threat range.
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Post by Cookielol on Apr 18, 2017 18:39:02 GMT
It would be interesting if she had a unique curse for banes or something to make her a little more unique. I had not thought of that. Being new, and a fan of learning on "learning" casters, I thought it would be neat for her to get a little tweak. It could be argued that she is a BB caster, and so they shouldnt do anything as it will confuse new comers, although something minor to play more into Banes would be neat.
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