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Post by tiberius on May 25, 2017 11:06:59 GMT
Nice write ups, I have been considering buying a unit of reeves for a while now but have not done it. I think they will be next on my list. Though I have to give the druids a nice review, I used them for the first time this past weekend trying out a janky wormwood control list and it was the first time I have ever just had my opponent quit. Continuously knocking down his front line (admittedly he brought an all melee force of Protectorate and no book) just locked the rest of his units in place and were all subject to whatever storm raptor and arc'd spells I wanted to bombard his exemplars with. The bird disrupted and ate jack after jack.
Going in, I thought he had the tools to take me down as he was using the testament of menoth. On feat turn, he could have charged through his knocked down front line into my forest and kill the druids, or send wave after wave into the bird to kill it, and just revive what died. He denied wormwood souls the entire game, but at the end of the day only managed to kill 1 of my heavies and maybe two other small models. The continuous control and knockdown demoralized him that much. He just felt like he couldn't do anything.
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Post by streetpizza on May 25, 2017 13:27:39 GMT
Well I'm not a protectorate player first, in fact its really just a happy accident that I have the army as a friend picked them up, stopped playing and just kind of left me his models.
I started with Circle in MKII and teleporting with the stones had me hooked from the word go. I played them for two years straight and then I got my Cygnar which I then played until MKIII released. I was so excited for MKIII that I busted my circle out again only to be bitterly disappointed to find that I had to play double sentry stones in every list or auto lose (first few months of MKIII here) and that all of my teleporting shenanigans were gone. So I went back to Cygnar. With every new release I put my circle back on the table for a game or two hopping to find the magic and its just not there.
- Storm raptor was so pretty I just had to play it ... disappointment set in. - Una2 seemed really fun but then all of my griffons got nerfed into the ground - Loki is really frickin cool ... but now he's all I design lists around. - Theme forces are all really fluffy and cool but the models required just can't hold their own weight in a fight.
So I kept going back to Cygnar. Eventually after about 8 months of Cygnar I could see the hesitation in my local meta to even play against the army as the good shooting lists in MKIII are just so damn opressive. Games are either blow outs, turn 2 or 3 assassinations or bust. So I turned to protectorate. Low and behold their raw power isn't anywhere near Cygnars but hot damn are they fun. I can put every unit (minus deliverers), every jack and almost every solo on the table and they do their job. They all seem to be priced right and its actually a fun game for my opponent trying to navigate the puzzle of buffs and counter plays I put before them.
Right now I just see the Protectorate as being the template for a well designed faction: - Fun to play and play against - Good mix of medium powered guns and effective melee - Good array of buffs that their units and jacks actually want - Interesting feats and abilities - Excellent internal balance across models - Good theme forces that are desirable but not over the top.
Hopefully the rest of the game hits that kind of stride.
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Post by ispyypsi on May 25, 2017 13:33:01 GMT
That awesome they worked out for you man. It hard for me to really enjoy then after playing them in mk2 though. Completely within didn't suck, pulling guys in was awesome, a no magic bubble was really fun, clingly clouds weren't a thing, and a huge nuke on the leader all made them super toolbox like and I miss it.
I haven't found a list where I had an extra 12 points that needed druids over somehing else. KD during wurmwoods feat is pretty awesome though. Congrats on the win, may you collect enough salt for a pillar.
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Post by ispyypsi on May 25, 2017 13:40:42 GMT
Hey street I agree with what you say about menoth. Even in mk2 I felt they were close to the poster child of fun/balance. Mk2 did ruin bastions pretty hard but thats a small price to pay to use most evrything else.
Around here we've created local terrain rules to try and curb shooting. We drop a lot of terrain and sometimes we ignore the completely within for concealment. Not all the time but enough so people can play gunlines and not feel bored.
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Post by LoS Jaden on May 25, 2017 14:21:34 GMT
Nice write ups, I have been considering buying a unit of reeves for a while now but have not done it. I think they will be next on my list. Though I have to give the druids a nice review, I used them for the first time this past weekend trying out a janky wormwood control list and it was the first time I have ever just had my opponent quit. Continuously knocking down his front line (admittedly he brought an all melee force of Protectorate and no book) just locked the rest of his units in place and were all subject to whatever storm raptor and arc'd spells I wanted to bombard his exemplars with. The bird disrupted and ate jack after jack. Going in, I thought he had the tools to take me down as he was using the testament of menoth. On feat turn, he could have charged through his knocked down front line into my forest and kill the druids, or send wave after wave into the bird to kill it, and just revive what died. He denied wormwood souls the entire game, but at the end of the day only managed to kill 1 of my heavies and maybe two other small models. The continuous control and knockdown demoralized him that much. He just felt like he couldn't do anything. Druids can occasionally do great work - the problem is that they're inconsistent, expensive, and frankly got taken from a seriously good toolbox unit in Mark 2 that most of us remember and loved to their current...very weak by comparison rulest.
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Post by LoS Jaden on May 25, 2017 14:22:26 GMT
Well I'm not a protectorate player first, in fact its really just a happy accident that I have the army as a friend picked them up, stopped playing and just kind of left me his models. I started with Circle in MKII and teleporting with the stones had me hooked from the word go. I played them for two years straight and then I got my Cygnar which I then played until MKIII released. I was so excited for MKIII that I busted my circle out again only to be bitterly disappointed to find that I had to play double sentry stones in every list or auto lose (first few months of MKIII here) and that all of my teleporting shenanigans were gone. So I went back to Cygnar. With every new release I put my circle back on the table for a game or two hopping to find the magic and its just not there. - Storm raptor was so pretty I just had to play it ... disappointment set in. - Una2 seemed really fun but then all of my griffons got nerfed into the ground - Loki is really frickin cool ... but now he's all I design lists around. - Theme forces are all really fluffy and cool but the models required just can't hold their own weight in a fight. So I kept going back to Cygnar. Eventually after about 8 months of Cygnar I could see the hesitation in my local meta to even play against the army as the good shooting lists in MKIII are just so damn opressive. Games are either blow outs, turn 2 or 3 assassinations or bust. So I turned to protectorate. Low and behold their raw power isn't anywhere near Cygnars but hot damn are they fun. I can put every unit (minus deliverers), every jack and almost every solo on the table and they do their job. They all seem to be priced right and its actually a fun game for my opponent trying to navigate the puzzle of buffs and counter plays I put before them. Right now I just see the Protectorate as being the template for a well designed faction: - Fun to play and play against - Good mix of medium powered guns and effective melee - Good array of buffs that their units and jacks actually want - Interesting feats and abilities - Excellent internal balance across models - Good theme forces that are desirable but not over the top. Hopefully the rest of the game hits that kind of stride. Agreed. Protectorate is basically as close to perfectly balanced as you can get. It's a ton of fun to play, and there have only been a few lists (like my Vindictus one...) that my locals absolutely hate playing against.
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Post by LoS Jaden on May 25, 2017 14:24:27 GMT
Day 4 of the State of the Faction looks at the Solos of the Circle, as well as our Battle Engine - the Celestial Fulcrum. Tomorrow will feature the conclusion piece of the series, which will include a wrap up and a list of things I'd like to see changed per model (seriously this is just me wishlisting). druidsdice.blogspot.com/2017/05/state-of-faction-45-circle-solos-and.html
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Post by streetpizza on May 25, 2017 14:41:54 GMT
Some other wilder applications:
- Kaya1 loves upkeeping occultation for free which can allow her to spirit door twice per turn instead of once. - Mohsar upkeeping sun hammer for free makes him a fury 10 warlock! - Morvahna1 and 2 love free upkeeps. - Kromac 1 is usually beast heavy and loves a free upkeep.
Reeve Hunter has one and only one application and that's in wild hunt with Grayle. He charges through the screen thanks to tactician, kills screening models and sprints back so that he's not blocking charges.
I think you're selling the war wolves short. They can lay a heavy low if they have a damage buff and with Tannith bringing reeves anyway they really shine (thanks scything touch!). This also works with Curse of Shadows under Mohsar or Wurmwood. Seriously how are 1xpow13 and 2xpow15 near guaranteed charges for only 6pts not a good thing? In other lists coming off of a hard flank maneuver they scare the living crap out of casters. They're just awesome in the wolf sworn theme force and I consider them as a weapon attachment for reeves. If we could spam them the way Khador does rocketeers I think you'd see them everywhere.
Morraig also works quite well with skin walkers for whatever that's worth. Why on earth he's got cleave instead of rapid strike is beyond me. I did actually play him in my wolf sworn Grayle list and wasn't disappointed thanks to the combination of storm rager, tactician and reposition 5".
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Post by LoS Jaden on May 26, 2017 15:36:52 GMT
HERE IT IS FOLKS: Part 5 of my State of the Faction, which includes an overview, my take on our faction identity and why it's a problem when it comes to design, my baseless wish list for a future CID and errata on each model we've got, and much, much more. Thanks for reading these guys, the discussion has been pretty awesome to see. druidsdice.blogspot.com/2017/05/state-of-faction-55-conclusion.html
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Post by jisidro on May 26, 2017 15:56:50 GMT
The GOOD:
Your work for us to read! Thank you!
Most of the article I agree with and share your pains. I think you went overboard on units/warbeasts. I think our guys are worth their price tag, I also think that what we lack is buffs to keep them over the other guys buffed stats. All in all it's the same feeling I had in MK2, bad everything except a few warbeasts but now I can't crutch on Morvahnna2 and shifting stones no longer get you wins.
The "Bad": "Double porting Ghetorix into your opponents caster was fairly common, and had little to no counterplay." - He who drank the cool aid!
Nooo! It wasn't! It was 12" away from the closest edge of the triangle from you. 14"/16" with Krueger2. It was a fairly uncommon trick that people got caught by. Same with Sorscha1 or Scourge + pew pew which still works and is "working as intended"
The Ugly:
We suffer horribly from the themes and PPs interpretation of them. White Mane has veteran leader for 1 unit and 1 WA. Really? A sub-theme within the Tharn sub-theme?
By the Nth time we are the blackclad faction, they are NOT A SUBTHEME THEY ARE THE GREATER THEME. It's so silly that the druid wilder is only in the theme where she has no magic ability she can use.
Put Blackclads in the themes: The Tharn theme would be interesting with acess to hunter's mark. Wild hunt would be very playable with the option to get 1 unit of Reeves and big BG, also put the war wolves on the list of points to give discounts.
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Post by streetpizza on May 26, 2017 17:41:20 GMT
Put Blackclads in the themes: The Tharn theme would be interesting with acess to hunter's mark. Wild hunt would be very playable with the option to get 1 unit of Reeves and big BG, also put the war wolves on the list of points to give discounts. Make the warwolves like the wracks where you can get all three for the cost of one of your free cards ... now its attractive. (yes its 6pts vs 3 for the wracks but may I direct your attention to the free helion legion gets or the dragoon in ret) On the article though lets cross our fingers that PP is paying attention because you've nailed it in the first part. Your wishlist may be a bit sky high though.
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Post by Bomma on May 27, 2017 8:10:56 GMT
It is very hard to play in theme when you loose the only real (magic 7 to hit) threat extension on a stick the faction has and needs.
I would love druids to get their pull back, even at best to get back what they were in Mk2.
B.
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Post by Fudly on May 27, 2017 16:37:06 GMT
I didn't realize the wilder didn't have any spells that can affect models in the only theme she's allowed in. That's shamefully badly designed. (I haven't ran the theme since I don't own any construct warbeasts)
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Post by LoS Jaden on May 28, 2017 18:46:48 GMT
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 30, 2017 12:42:21 GMT
Not to bring down the party, or start a fire, but your Model recap is asking for MKII strength, MKIII buffs, and point cost reductions nearly across the board. That's waaay too much. Yes some models like the storm Raptor, non-character/non-wyrd wolds, and mainly tharn infantry need consideration. As well as themes. But Circle is far from that doom and gloom analysis. "The grass is always greener" bias runs around everywhere in this game. Other factions lost a lot more than Circle, gained far less than Circle, and are still operating fine in the meta that is stacked against them. Every Hordes faction is suffering the "guns, tank, or gtfo" meta of Warmachine. I'd love to see Circle get quality of life changes for their worst models. But warpwolves, satyrs, and casters are far from that consideration.
I really enjoy reading your battle reports because you are just so thorough a player. You see so many opportunities and you just play really damn well. You have a great track record and often win far more than you loose. If you are posting near everything. So the fact that you are even winning with Grayle and Brennos lists or Storm Raptor, Kromac lists. Not to mention fantastic tournament reports. Yet you still think Circle is underpowered? That's either dishonest or you're playing against people who are well below your skill level. Which I highly doubt the later at tournaments.
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