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Post by piedpiperwtf on Apr 7, 2018 2:34:25 GMT
Move Bethayne up cast despoiler and disenegration then teleport back to Belphagor, bam cloud cover, infantry denial, and a safe caster. She is a great caster to yo yo In and out of threat ranges this way.
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Post by dogganmguest on Apr 7, 2018 2:51:26 GMT
Move Bethayne up cast despoiler and disenegration then teleport back to Belphagor, bam cloud cover, infantry denial, and a safe caster. She is a great caster to yo yo In and out of threat ranges this way. She can't teleport to him, she can walk 6" towards him with Invocation. Also, despoiler comes back with her, and she has no fury left.
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newsun
Junior Strategist
Posts: 140
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Post by newsun on Apr 7, 2018 3:04:51 GMT
Move Bethayne up cast despoiler and disenegration then teleport back to Belphagor, bam cloud cover, infantry denial, and a safe caster. She is a great caster to yo yo In and out of threat ranges this way. She can't teleport to him, she can walk 6" towards him with Invocation. Also, despoiler comes back with her, and she has no fury left. Yeah it's too bad the aoe remains centered on the caster. This suggested tactic would make her better for sure.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Apr 7, 2018 5:05:46 GMT
Lanz, thanks for explaining that those 20 pts allready considered Bethany's lower concieved position on the powercurve and that one can ask the question if they should make it harder on themselves. However, when considering Bethany internally that's really beside the point. If Bethany unbound can answer a question as well as a themelist, who cares how the points are balanced? Not saying it can be done, but considering how many things she likes that our spread out across all themes, I think an out of theme list shouldn't be dismissed as a deficit, or even be regarded as such out of hand. I have to say though, getting 8+ models in hellmouthgoodness for free in terrors... it's just too good to pass up for a caster that starts low on points such as bethany or the twins. Since Bethany allready wants infantry I feel this is more true for the twins, but I am curious about Bethany with BB so it sorta makes up for the (relative) pointsink that is BB. Probably the best place for her now.
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Post by althor on Apr 7, 2018 9:02:05 GMT
Move Bethayne up cast despoiler and disenegration then teleport back to Belphagor, bam cloud cover, infantry denial, and a safe caster. She is a great caster to yo yo In and out of threat ranges this way. If I'm right, that's 7 fury, so she's camping 0 in the middle of a concealing cloud. She's not alone, but she's far from safe, and she only lowerred ARM on one model in the process.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 7, 2018 13:00:28 GMT
Lanz , thanks for explaining that those 20 pts allready considered Bethany's lower concieved position on the powercurve and that one can ask the question if they should make it harder on themselves. However, when considering Bethany internally that's really beside the point. If Bethany unbound can answer a question as well as a themelist, who cares how the points are balanced? Not saying it can be done, but considering how many things she likes that our spread out across all themes, I think an out of theme list shouldn't be dismissed as a deficit, or even be regarded as such out of hand. I have to say though, getting 8+ models in hellmouthgoodness for free in terrors... it's just too good to pass up for a caster that starts low on points such as bethany or the twins. Since Bethany allready wants infantry I feel this is more true for the twins, but I am curious about Bethany with BB so it sorta makes up for the (relative) pointsink that is BB. Probably the best place for her now. It's not a question of whether or not it should be dismissed as a deficit. It IS a deficit whether you want to take it into account or not. A player with a 30 point caster playing a theme list with at least 10 free points will absolutely have 20 points more in their army than you, and nothing changes that. Because of that, a bethayne list that is also out of theme would have to be doing something truly amazing to justify that kind of loss. I'm not saying that's impossible, I'm just saying it's a very high bar and I'm not seeing any lists that look like they justify that loss. You'd need to have some kind of full-list scale synergy going on, otherwise there will almost always be some component you can swap out to make it fit a theme list and get some of those points back. Even a list that tries to do something specific like swordsmen + grotesques can be swapped with Primal Terrors using warpsears or warmongers instead of the swordsmen (similar single-target output, similar anti-infantry power) and rotwings instead of grotesques, and for most practical purposes the list will do the same thing against the same kinds of targets.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 4, 2018 12:30:00 GMT
So, Got to play a light hearted game with Bethayne in Ravens. I have to say I'm surprised but then I had a "duh" moment after thinking about the math.
So basically -
B&B 2x Neraph Raek Afflictor Wasps Blightblades Scouts + UA Deathstalker Grotesques (max) 2x Spell Martyrs 2x Forsaken
I ambushed both units but in hind sight should have AD deployed the blightblades. Against Malekus he didn't have anti-stealth. But with Disintegration and feat one Forsaken (with 4 Fury) was able to severely cripple a Castigator for easy Neraph kill + sprint. The other forsaken (4) was able to kill a Repenter.
The Raek being able to jump gets him out of the way for the .5" reach warriors (which is a complete and total aneurysm to deal with otherwise). Bees crit and ate a champion by themselves, that was fun. I still do not like Grots but I see their capability. The Afflictor was exactly what I needed where I needed it. It charged a Zealot; killed and spawned an incubii. It then cast attractor and pulled his castigator into range of the Forsaken. The Incubii then went and charged the Monolith bearer and kill him. No mini feat on zealots makes them real sad.
So I'm pretty impressed it worked as well as it did. But like i said, when you think about it the flank die can just be thought as 3.5 damage. Plus Disintegration for +2. So an Average of +5.5 damage is pretty sweet.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2018 10:48:45 GMT
Good to read, that you had success with B&B.
But I am totally convinced, that Abby2 would do it better with longer threatranges and more overall power.
So my question is: Why should I play B&B, if other warlocks can kill much easier?
B&B have nothing special or unique, that could change the game. Theire game plan is to coordinate warrior and beasts to kill as much as possible. In my opinion this is much more difficult than other warlocks, that just want to kill the enemy.
The ability to meld with her character beast is nice, but not game changing.
Her spell list is boring - nothing to boost Infantry or beast significiant. (Pathfinder for example.) No field marshall ability to give an extra buff.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 5, 2018 14:09:11 GMT
Well, I do not intend this to be mean but I am an anti-bandwagon person. If you tell me Abby2 is the better option I play everything but. You say L3 is the staple for a tournament pair? I don't even own her. That sort of thing. So take my opinion with that in mind. One of the things I have found to be my biggest hindrance as a Legion player is loosing a beast before it gets where it wants to go. An infantry jam, a control spell, knockback, or just plenty of damage. I did play a LOT of Cygnar games. So to minimize the impact of their shooting I bring more bodies that still require high quality shooting but you get less return on investment. Bethayne brings that idea along and turns what is usually a mess of bodies rushing the trenches and turns them into heavy killers. Both my CotD list and this Ravens list are able to trade up well using very few infantry models. Again, using just 2 forsaken I was able to make, what I think, are fantastic trades. It wouldn't have required the Neraph to join in if I had the blight blades AD'd. As for a "boring spell list" I hear that constantly.[Same thing gets said about Kryssa.] Nearly everything she has is "unique" to Legion. I mean most of Abby's spells are unique to her alone as well. But what is and isn't boring is based on perspective. Do you like Abby2 casting hexbolt to trigger alpha hunter and running to safety or any of the stuff below? Cloak of Ash and two 5" clouds bring a lot of concealment to def 14+ infantry models. Stealthed hex hunters, Def 18 warlords vs. shooting, etc... It's a good delivery for me and my play style. (Unique spell until Kryssa arrived) Blood thorn is probably the weakest toy in her kit as 33% of the time it doesn't do anything. But 66% of the time it kills a single wound infantry model that tough'd the strider/archer bow shot. (Unique spell) Venom is still a quality spray through her pet arc node. A pet that has his own innate corrosive spray, and an anti single wound infantry 5" cloud. All good threats vs infantry spam. (Unique to Legion) Disintegration is just a great arm debuff but the costs is a big barrier to her power overall. Spell martyrs are still basically required for this spell. Putting out 2 of these and staying half the board away from the enemy is just something you can do. (Unique spell) Invocation is more often a sort of repo 6". Since is specifies "towards" and not "directly towards" you just have to end closer than when you started. So plenty of lateral movement. Or yes, you can tank up with Belphagor and have some great defense stats, 24hp, and still possible transfers. (Unique/signature spell) So What does Abby2 bring to the table? A fantastic mat and speed buff with Alpha hunter A ranged nuke to trigger Alpha hunter An arm buff for a single BG model A way to heal her beasts if they survived A cute out of turn gun shot A unrivaled feat All of these are good things. The "worst" part of her kit could be Return Fire. I don't deny she has a lot of power. She is the Alpha strike queen. A mind boggling +5" threat to any beast thanks AH, slipstream, and a reach increase. Gets to bring Proteus for even more insane reach. It's all very good. I will never deny that. But what if it's against infamous Haley 2, even after the nerf? Or Rask? Coven? Kolgrima*? Wurmwood? landsharks vs. Baldur 1? What if it's against an all Heavy spam list and there's nothing to kill for Alpha hunter? What if a gunline blows up 2 heavies before you get to feat? You can't out threat a sniped stormwall. Or simply Grievous wounds and a sniped out spirit spiral? It's a case of putting all of your eggs in one basket. Abby to me is too easily played around in the normal "axe to face" beast load out. And I get it, you pair her with someone blah blah blah. I'm not playing in tournaments all the time (hell, nearly none of the time). So I don't intend to make my guides out to be answers to tournaments. It's just about sharing experience and in my experience I carry my Legion lists on the backs of our infantry now more than I do our beasts. So I like Bethayne. I know few do, so I wrote an article to show my side of the argument. It doesn't mean you should have to like her too. In the end, yes, all casters have to have a plan to kill the enemy. Some do so straight forward, some take planning. Neither are blatantly better or worse than the other. Bethayne brings turn by turn damage and more bodies. Abby brings a fantastic alpha and a heal to keep cleaning up after. It's all personal preference.
[edit] * - corrected. Seems Cold Granny's feat is an "at time of use" rather than a round effect. So Abby can clear those hurtles. My mistake.
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Post by snotling on Jun 5, 2018 15:09:50 GMT
Abby2 is awesome into Kolgrimma by the way. Bracer, Feat and a mistspeaker kompletely nullify grannys feat.
Wurmwood is just a bad pick vs abb2y, triggering alpha huner isn't to hard, and the resultibg walking threat of her beasts is so high, wurmwoods feat becomes allmost useless.
Coven and Rask are also very playable matchups.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 5, 2018 15:31:22 GMT
Abby2 is awesome into Kolgrimma by the way. Bracer, Feat and a mistspeaker kompletely nullify grannys feat. Wurmwood is just a bad pick vs abb2y, triggering alpha huner isn't to hard, and the resultibg walking threat of her beasts is so high, wurmwoods feat becomes allmost useless. Coven and Rask are also very playable matchups. Cold Granny's feat says no eyeless sight, pathfinder, or flight. Also pushes things 2" away. She practically nulifies the Alpha hunter speed bonus, the feat's flight bonus, and the clouds from the theme now block LoS.
Bracer doesn't do anything against the feat. a Mist speaker may help 1 model get eyeless sight back. But nothing else you said makes any sense.
If anything is past 3" of forest, which is should be, you can't hit anything to proc alpha hunter and a 7" walk should never get you to reach anything if the WW player has sense. WW would basically have to feat on top of Abby's army to make the scenario you're thinking of.
Rask is a defiend Alpha shut down feats. If you haven't already lost something to Brine under Rask he can makes sure you lose far more after his feat turn.
Coven could still do the same. It's unlikely you won't either lose beasts or lose on scenario if you try to dance outside Cryx threat ranges.
[edit] correction - yes bracer says no push. So you huddle around one model. Other issues still stand.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 5, 2018 15:34:32 GMT
Abby2 is awesome into Kolgrimma by the way. Bracer, Feat and a mistspeaker kompletely nullify grannys feat. Wurmwood is just a bad pick vs abb2y, triggering alpha huner isn't to hard, and the resultibg walking threat of her beasts is so high, wurmwoods feat becomes allmost useless. Coven and Rask are also very playable matchups. Rask is a defiend Alpha shut down feats. If you haven't already lost something to Brine under Rask he can makes sure you lose far more after his feat turn.
Brine is disgusting under Rask, he touched me in a bad way last weekend.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 5, 2018 15:38:50 GMT
Rask is a defiend Alpha shut down feats. If you haven't already lost something to Brine under Rask he can makes sure you lose far more after his feat turn.
Brine is disgusting under Rask, he touched me in a bad way last weekend. Stupid thing missed all three initials and still one round a carnivean with bought attacks >.<! It's DUMB! I need one...
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Post by snotling on Jun 5, 2018 16:22:23 GMT
Abby2 is awesome into Kolgrimma by the way. Bracer, Feat and a mistspeaker kompletely nullify grannys feat. Wurmwood is just a bad pick vs abb2y, triggering alpha huner isn't to hard, and the resultibg walking threat of her beasts is so high, wurmwoods feat becomes allmost useless. Coven and Rask are also very playable matchups. Cold Granny's feat says no eyeless sight, pathfinder, or flight. Also pushes things 2" away. She practically nulifies the Alpha hunter speed bonus, the feat's flight bonus, and the clouds from the theme now block LoS.
Bracer doesn't do anything against the feat. a Mist speaker may help 1 model get eyeless sight back. But nothing else you said makes any sense.
If anything is past 3" of forest, which is should be, you can't hit anything to proc alpha hunter and a 7" walk should never get you to reach anything if the WW player has sense. WW would basically have to feat on top of Abby's army to make the scenario you're thinking of.
Rask is a defiend Alpha shut down feats. If you haven't already lost something to Brine under Rask he can makes sure you lose far more after his feat turn.
Coven could still do the same. It's unlikely you won't either lose beasts or lose on scenario if you try to dance outside Cryx threat ranges.
[edit] correction - yes bracer says no push. So you huddle around one model. Other issues still stand.
First everything b2b with the bracer target doesn't get pushed, then her feat is a pulse, so abby gives everything flight right back, then the mistspeaker gives one beast eyeles sight back.
Worked very well for me in the last tournament.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 5, 2018 16:39:11 GMT
o.0?
Her feat doesn't remove flying, for a round, while inside her ctrl range?
If that's right; then yeah. Makes sense. My mistake.
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