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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 30, 2018 16:19:11 GMT
Good to know. I'll try to remember to tell people 2" reach will protect them from despoiler.
Anything else you guys would want to see in the tactica? Maybe a full battle report? My current lists for her?
I'm still trying to figure out what interactions I might have missed.
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288 
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Post by whydak on Mar 30, 2018 20:16:41 GMT
Good to know. I'll try to remember to tell people 2" reach will protect them from despoiler. Anything else you guys would want to see in the tactica? Maybe a full battle report? My current lists for her? I'm still trying to figure out what interactions I might have missed. Lists with comments  I had some attempts to Lists in ravens and cotd but it never was what I wanted |
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 30, 2018 23:27:15 GMT
Added to the Athanc.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Mar 31, 2018 20:10:17 GMT
Im curious to your thoughts on the minimum beast loadout, are two soldiers and a seer sufficient? Losing one before the featturn could really put a stopper to your plans.
Looking forward to thoughts on Bethany in terrors. There is an appeal to running her with BB, but it's just so heavy on points.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 2, 2018 11:46:45 GMT
Everytime I look at Primal Terrors I just see taking min units of Rotwings, blight waspes, and hellmouths. So it's not really anything unique. Rotwings are just flying conditional swordsmen. There might be something to using Chosen, but we still don't have the rules for them. But I'll try and figure something out.
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Post by davycannonhound on Apr 2, 2018 22:02:20 GMT
Everytime I look at Primal Terrors I just see taking min units of Rotwings, blight waspes, and hellmouths. So it's not really anything unique. Rotwings are just flying conditional swordsmen. There might be something to using Chosen, but we still don't have the rules for them. But I'll try and figure something out. I feel like anything with 2" melee would be helpful with Beth's feat. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Apr 3, 2018 14:16:42 GMT
I would think the real reason to use Primal Terrors over CotD would be the Hellmouth and the synergy between Bethayne and the Blightbringer which would make her a veritable monster during feat turn. If you use Wasps to proc Flank, they can (reasonably) be protected via concealemnt or hiding behind Ogrun bases. These same bases also give you a place to hide Bethayne herself. You end up losing a free solo slot, but you already had that problem in CotD anyway. Heck, because of her miserable beast points, you often have that with Bethayne regardless of what theme you take.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Apr 3, 2018 16:00:49 GMT
You end up losing a free solo slot, but you already had that problem in CotD anyway. Heck, because of her miserable beast points, you often have that with Bethayne regardless of what theme you take. Which is why I think Bethany isn't too bad to go out of theme with. Proteus is great for her as well as it's hard to increase infantrythreat. This immediatly gives access to deathstalkers as well which is never bad. Was thinking about the following list which could allways use more of course, but doesn't lack anything to function? Bethany unbound (20 + 75) 0 Belphagor 19 proteus 18 2x nephilim soldier 15 max swordmasters 12 max grotesques 9 blackfrost shard 10 2x nyss warlord 8 2x deathstalker 4 grotesque assassin |
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 4, 2018 0:46:58 GMT
Bethayne without a theme list is basically playing a whole heavy or full unit down from a list in-theme with another caster. Especially if you're going to take models that you otherwise would have taken for free in a theme list.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Apr 4, 2018 10:51:37 GMT
I don't think Bethany is ever gonna get a lot of freebees because I think childeren is the best theme for her, so I don't see how other casters getting them reflects on her. I don't mind dropping the one free thing and marginally effective rules childeren give for flexibility.
Having said that, Im curious to her performance in terrors, she likes all the bonusses in that un, even if the unit selection doesn't look ideal.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 4, 2018 12:39:28 GMT
It all depends on how much you value the out of theme model. In that example; is Proteus and Deathstalker worth the trade off? It's already been said that the CotD theme bonuses are not that good that you can't pass it up.
I agree that the bonuses and the open beast stable for Primal terrors makes it a much better prospect. But I've got to test somethings first and we are still waiting for Chosen rules.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 5, 2018 0:15:09 GMT
It all depends on how much you value the out of theme model. In that example; is Proteus and Deathstalker worth the trade off? It's already been said that the CotD theme bonuses are not that good that you can't pass it up. I agree that the bonuses and the open beast stable for Primal terrors makes it a much better prospect. But I've got to test somethings first and we are still waiting for Chosen rules. I think there has to be something really compelling going on to justify a 20+ point deficit vs other lists. I think one should always ask themselves if this non-theme option they want is really something that's impossible to get in-theme. Proteus and deathstalkers can be Zuriel/Azrael and Craelix in CoTD, for example. Minions are potentially an option as well. Farrow Brigands, for example, might not be much use with her feat, but they're hitting an effective POW16 with each shot after Prey and Disintegration. That can potentially one-round a heavy. Options like WE&SJ are almost never a bad idea either. |
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Apr 5, 2018 5:35:55 GMT
20+pt is a bit of an exageration, and Zuriel and Azrael are no replacement for what proteus offers.
Angelius and two soldiers does leave Bethany 60 points to get 3 freebees in either ravens or terrors, but that's without any minions.
Which I think can work well in Ravens for 12 free points; double raptors, double hellmouth, grotesques is a snug fit and doesn't need proteus to offer a pseudoextension to their threatrange. It doesn't hit as hard as a childeren list, but is better on scenario and has better special themerules.
I think I'd wanna go with double angelius and wasps though? 2 freebees and a different unit loadout. It's probably not going to be as good for Bethany but all that spam... it's highly personal, I don't like it.
One of each unit in terrors hits those 60 points right on the nose if chosen stay 20 points, probably top it off with free spearUA and double hellmouth (which are all awesome freebees). I don't know if it plays to the strenghts of either the theme or Bethany but it's such a nice fit pointwise I wanna give it a go, and it looks like a lot of fun.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 5, 2018 12:15:05 GMT
I think there has to be something really compelling going on to justify a 20+ point deficit vs other lists. I think one should always ask themselves if this non-theme option they want is really something that's impossible to get in-theme. Proteus and deathstalkers can be Zuriel/Azrael and Craelix in CoTD, for example. Minions are potentially an option as well. Farrow Brigands, for example, might not be much use with her feat, but they're hitting an effective POW16 with each shot after Prey and Disintegration. That can potentially one-round a heavy. Options like WE&SJ are almost never a bad idea either. Again, I will preface with the fact that I enjoy out of theme lists quite a lot. My perception is different but that doesn't mean it's right in any fashion. 20+ I assume is a combination of freebies and her low beast points. So I get the reason why that is so high and yes playing that much down would be horrific. I don't argue that one bit. What I do argue is that Zuriel/Azrael can swap for Proteus. "IF" you feel you need the 4+ inch threat extension Proteus or hellmouths are the only option to fill that role in that way. My CotD list was running double bolt throwers before Azrael. I tested it with Azrael and found I really needed the guaranteed thunderbolt push so I swapped it back. Even though Azrael is a great beast, he did not do what I needed in this particular list. I personally will always play out of theme if the combination is good enough to warrant it. Like Blightbringer and legionnaires/swordsmen/Raptors under Fyanna 2. Some things just work. But not all will at a high level of play. |
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 6, 2018 20:05:26 GMT
20+pt is a bit of an exageration, and Zuriel and Azrael are no replacement for what proteus offers. Most casters are in the 28-30 point range. Most theme lists provide anywhere from 8 to 12 free points. Bethayne is a full 10 points down from some casters and gets nothing for those points. Belphagor is balanced into her average spell list/feat, abysmal stats, and total lack of special rules. The Twins get a whole second warlock and don't pay as many points. Thagrosh2 is basically a heavy built into a warlock and doesn't pay that many points. If you're playing bethayne you're playing at a deficit automatically. If you play out of theme on top of that, you're adding another deficit. Put those together and you're easily looking at as much as a 20 point disadvantage against your opponent. Now the theme list free points aren't always a big deal for raw points alone, but there's a good chance that you're getting at least 8 points of free stuff that you would want anyways, and the 10 points bethayne loses for nothing are points that could be spent on anything, so at least 18 'good' points lost. That's a character heavy, or a full unit. That's not an exaggeration. I think there has to be something really compelling going on to justify a 20+ point deficit vs other lists. I think one should always ask themselves if this non-theme option they want is really something that's impossible to get in-theme. Proteus and deathstalkers can be Zuriel/Azrael and Craelix in CoTD, for example. Minions are potentially an option as well. Farrow Brigands, for example, might not be much use with her feat, but they're hitting an effective POW16 with each shot after Prey and Disintegration. That can potentially one-round a heavy. Options like WE&SJ are almost never a bad idea either. Again, I will preface with the fact that I enjoy out of theme lists quite a lot. My perception is different but that doesn't mean it's right in any fashion. 20+ I assume is a combination of freebies and her low beast points. So I get the reason why that is so high and yes playing that much down would be horrific. I don't argue that one bit. What I do argue is that Zuriel/Azrael can swap for Proteus. "IF" you feel you need the 4+ inch threat extension Proteus or hellmouths are the only option to fill that role in that way. My CotD list was running double bolt throwers before Azrael. I tested it with Azrael and found I really needed the guaranteed thunderbolt push so I swapped it back. Even though Azrael is a great beast, he did not do what I needed in this particular list. I personally will always play out of theme if the combination is good enough to warrant it. Like Blightbringer and legionnaires/swordsmen/Raptors under Fyanna 2. Some things just work. But not all will at a high level of play. Proteus has some really valuable cool tech. So does Azrael, and to a lesser degree so does Zuriel. We're talking CoTD vs non-theme, so for all practical purposes they all have unyielding. If you've built a list around capitalizing on Proteus' advantages with bethayne specifically to the degree you have to play out of theme, I'd love to see that list and hear how it works. Otherwise most of our beasts have quirks and strengths that can be exploited and built around, and pairing up a combo that costs you that many points by playing out of theme immediately makes me ask if there's a more efficient way that can be accomplished. Personally I think being able to buff Azrael's ranged damage easily makes him a strong contender, but then I'm also leaning more towards a shooting list with Bethayne anyways, since unlike Parasite, you can put disintegration on more than one target. |
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I had some attempts to Lists in ravens and cotd but it never was what I wanted 
