|
Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 27, 2018 8:16:30 GMT
I'd be curious to know how many Control Points that Grim2 list gleaned. My games with them always seem to be quick assassinations, or bust. I can't tell you that, but I can show you the final results here. It may be worth noting that the top 5 had 3 Trollbloods and the top 3 was entirely German. Oh, you can actually click on the names there. He scored 0 CP in both his mirror matches.
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Mar 27, 2018 8:17:19 GMT
Okay, so... I was wondering just the other day if a full-blown, full tilt gun line could work in Trolls, and I was even thinking about the Bushwackers and wondering if they might even be a tad underrated. And I look at this list feeling like I might even be overlooking the obvious, but still... I just don't get it.
Okay, half the list is AD and that can reach a sort of critical mass, especially if you opt to go first. Sure. Ambush the Lookouts for scenario or to scalpel out some key support piece like Granny's Krielstone. Fire Eaters are probably shock troops here, charge in, make a mess, buy some time. Unless there's something specific like a Stalker that you need them to kill asap. Double Bomber is great, I do that myself all the time. Not without Whelps or Knot, but hey, maybe you're spending Grim's fury aggressively, Mortality and a boosted shot every turn. And there's the Chef, sure. Still with you so far.
Like I said, I can see using the Bushwackers, but doubling up on them? In for a penny, in for a pound maybe? And I guess he could Bushwack and Slip Away fairly often because he had other things to hold zones?
And not just a Thumper, but two? Not even as freebies? They're garbage, one of the worst weapon crews in the game. Even just for scenario presence, they're never going to get into the fight in time. When they finally do, they are far too little far too late.
The bottom line for me here is that even the dark horse factor doesn't seem worth much. People plan to deal with gun lines. So surely they can deal with a gun line from one of the worst factions at doing this.
Then again, for whatever reason, I've never been able to win with gun lines, so maybe I'm just the wrong person to ask.
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on Mar 27, 2018 8:36:02 GMT
The fact is that this list is almost certainly very different from anything most of us have ever played.
I find it weird how many of you are willing to dismiss it without putting it on the table.
This might be the most innovative list I've seen in months and I intend to try it out and see what it can do. I think it answers a few matchups which seem bad for Trolls like Harby.
Innovation is all about trying new things and I think we should embrace it.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 27, 2018 8:53:24 GMT
Like I said, I can see using the Bushwackers, but doubling up on them? In for a penny, in for a pound maybe? And I guess he could Bushwack and Slip Away fairly often because he had other things to hold zones? And not just a Thumper, but two? Not even as freebies? They're garbage, one of the worst weapon crews in the game. Even just for scenario presence, they're never going to get into the fight in time. When they finally do, they are far too little far too late. The bottom line for me here is that even the dark horse factor doesn't seem worth much. People plan to deal with gun lines. So surely they can deal with a gun line from one of the worst factions at doing this. Then again, for whatever reason, I've never been able to win with gun lines, so maybe I'm just the wrong person to ask. - I'm not a troll player, so what I say may not be 100% correct.
- Robin is literally one of the best players in the world. I've seen him play janky shit before and he can make literally anything work. Once at the Belgian Masters he was given a random army the day of the tournament (he could make his own lists) and took second place anyway.
I do think you're seriously underestimating both of these options, especially when thinking about just going all out assassination. The bushwhacker attachment has a relatively powerful aoe to clear infantry, the officer makes the unit impossible to jam. The unit has piss poor RAT, but CRA, access to Mortality, aiming (with Snipe on feat turn) and on the feat, you can run a chef up somewhere to give +2 to hit. They are decent assassination tools, especially with rerolling 2-man CRAs and can absolutely murder infantry, after which they just move away. The Thumper Crew is there to provide auto knockdown and some slams on demand. Especially useful for assassinations, but also offers some control of your opponent's hardier targets. No arcing fire is a bummer and they are slightly expensive, but they're still POW 16 with auto knockdown effects, I would hardly call them the worst weapon crew in the game. The reason there are 2 is most likely for redundancy, you don't want your knockdown shot to miss on the assassination and when there's no reroll available, you might as well just take another one. I didn't see him play the lists, but I would assume: Grim and co feats and clears a LoS line to the opposing caster, maybe use Thumpers to slam/knock down some stuff if you can't get rid of it. Some expendable model runs up to said caster for Mark the Target. You unload and kill most casters in the game even through some camp. Doesn't work against battle engines or colossals that are screening the caster. Clouds are difficult, but 2 Bombers and Grim's boys can kill Kolgrimma by herself, especially if an ambushing unit comes to help. EDIT: just brushed up on the rules of KC and you already ignore your own models for LoS, so no arcing fire matters less (especially with enough shooting to clear lanes).
|
|
snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
|
Post by snoozer on Mar 27, 2018 9:35:35 GMT
Actually there is not really much of any battle rep in there. It's mostly a live report some gratulations some sadness of the ones beaten, but really no specific details. Only that Robin likes to include more Tughalos in the future ^^ He also killed one Kolgrima with the Thumper Crew behind a wall - didn't even have to use the Bomber. He says that double Thumper is really strong. Other than that, the bottom line that they beat face with 3x Trolls.
|
|
ravenfire
Junior Strategist
Me Mulg me SMASSSSSHHHH
Posts: 244
|
Post by ravenfire on Mar 27, 2018 10:25:02 GMT
too bad. Maybe we should ask him on the forum to enlighten us a bit
like why thumpers are powerfull in his opinion. And why more tuffalows etc..
|
|
snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
|
Post by snoozer on Mar 27, 2018 12:23:19 GMT
I asked them if they were going to do more detailed battle reports, I can give you some insights if they do
|
|
gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
|
Post by gdnerd on Mar 27, 2018 14:51:50 GMT
The fact is that this list is almost certainly very different from anything most of us have ever played. I find it weird how many of you are willing to dismiss it without putting it on the table. This might be the most innovative list I've seen in months and I intend to try it out and see what it can do. I think it answers a few matchups which seem bad for Trolls like Harby. Innovation is all about trying new things and I think we should embrace it. A good pilot can make any list work even one that's pure garbage. Not saying this list is terrible but it's pretty far from optimal. It only works because this guy really knows what he's doing and / or has specific matchups in mind.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 27, 2018 15:01:58 GMT
The fact is that this list is almost certainly very different from anything most of us have ever played. I find it weird how many of you are willing to dismiss it without putting it on the table. This might be the most innovative list I've seen in months and I intend to try it out and see what it can do. I think it answers a few matchups which seem bad for Trolls like Harby. Innovation is all about trying new things and I think we should embrace it. A good pilot can make any list work even one that's pure garbage. Not saying this list is terrible but it's pretty far from optimal. It only works because this guy really knows what he's doing and / or has specific matchups in mind. This is extremely contradictory in my opinion. At first you say it's not optimal, but then you acknowledge that he really knows what he's doing. If he knows what he's doing, wouldn't he take the optimal list for his purposes? That being said, you are right that a good player can make anything work, but I would assume that he doesn't intentionally handicap himself at a masters event.
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Mar 27, 2018 15:06:38 GMT
The fact is that this list is almost certainly very different from anything most of us have ever played. I find it weird how many of you are willing to dismiss it without putting it on the table. This might be the most innovative list I've seen in months and I intend to try it out and see what it can do. I think it answers a few matchups which seem bad for Trolls like Harby. Innovation is all about trying new things and I think we should embrace it. A good pilot can make any list work even one that's pure garbage. Not saying this list is terrible but it's pretty far from optimal. It only works because this guy really knows what he's doing and / or has specific matchups in mind. That, and it looks like this was a team tournament, so he was probably building to answer specific matchups, even if I'm not sure exactly what.
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on Mar 27, 2018 15:08:31 GMT
A good pilot can make any list work even one that's pure garbage. Not saying this list is terrible but it's pretty far from optimal. It only works because this guy really knows what he's doing and / or has specific matchups in mind. You do understand that there was probably a higher quality of play on the top tables than at Adepticon that weekend. German, French, Assumedly Dutch WTC players to name just what we know.
I don't think you beat some of the best players in the world playing garbage.
Why do you think it's a team tournament?
I must have missed that.
|
|
Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
|
Post by Arcaux on Mar 27, 2018 15:10:23 GMT
The fact is that this list is almost certainly very different from anything most of us have ever played. I find it weird how many of you are willing to dismiss it without putting it on the table. This might be the most innovative list I've seen in months and I intend to try it out and see what it can do. I think it answers a few matchups which seem bad for Trolls like Harby. Innovation is all about trying new things and I think we should embrace it. A good pilot can make any list work even one that's pure garbage. Not saying this list is terrible but it's pretty far from optimal. It only works because this guy really knows what he's doing and / or has specific matchups in mind. You do understand that there was probably a higher quality of play on the top tables than at Adepticon that weekend. German, French, Assumedly Dutch WTC players to name just what we know. I don't think you beat some of the best players in the world playing garbage.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 27, 2018 15:10:41 GMT
It was not a team tournament, but it did have German, Dutch and Belgian WTC players (and an Estonian one) as well as the French player that won the Belgian Masters.
|
|
gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
|
Post by gdnerd on Mar 27, 2018 16:12:43 GMT
A good pilot can make any list work even one that's pure garbage. Not saying this list is terrible but it's pretty far from optimal. It only works because this guy really knows what he's doing and / or has specific matchups in mind. You do understand that there was probably a higher quality of play on the top tables than at Adepticon that weekend. German, French, Assumedly Dutch WTC players to name just what we know. I don't think you beat some of the best players in the world playing garbage. First of all, I seriously doubt that the Netherlands Masters was significantly superior quality to Adepticon. Adepticon was stacked with current and former US/Canada WTC members and a number of WMW perennials. To imply such would be pretty snobby and incorrect. Secondly I didn't say it was garbage. I said it was IMO pretty far from optimal and therefore must have been built for a specific purpose (if not just a very smart and talented person playing the way he wants). My point there was that outside of whatever matchups he built this to target, this Grim list probably doesn't do that well. It isn't a plug and play list that I'd suggest to someone looking for ideas to take to a Steamroller or their first Masters. Please tell me we can agree on at least that.
|
|
mhean
Demo Gamer
Posts: 16
|
Post by mhean on Mar 27, 2018 21:00:25 GMT
I've seen Robin play multiple times, and this guy is a monster. Bassicly, he finished second at the Belgian master with Skorne (while it was garbage) and with lists made the night before the event.
But, from his own tought, his lists weren't optimal (it's written in the german forum page5).
|
|