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Post by mcdermott on Mar 20, 2018 0:03:00 GMT
It's quite obvious that CID is establishing a new power level above what previously was considered balanced. And if you'll just let me grab my tinfoil hat I can explain why. With the new release model, players need to be encouraged to switch to the "next big thing", whereas previously they only had to buy a handful of models to stay up to date. A larger investment requires more encouragement. This is why lich3 slayers and Nemo3 are the 2 most meta bending lists? I’m with mcdermott. This forum bums me out... most of the threads on general discussion are just an echo chamber of whining about things that just are not true. Khador is terrible khador is terrible "Well if you take out team tournaments they're like #3 for top 3 placings" "Thats a terrible methodology even though it uses more tournament data than just being 11th at OTC"
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Post by dogganmguest on Mar 20, 2018 2:11:03 GMT
It's not "this forum", it's "warmachine players".
Yes, this forum sucks too, but it's not alone.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Mar 20, 2018 4:48:01 GMT
This is why lich3 slayers and Nemo3 are the 2 most meta bending lists? I’m with mcdermott. This forum bums me out... most of the threads on general discussion are just an echo chamber of whining about things that just are not true. Khador is terrible khador is terrible "Well if you take out team tournaments they're like #3 for top 3 placings" "Thats a terrible methodology even though it uses more tournament data than just being 11th at OTC" To be honest the result of that excersise was cryx and cygnar were getting all the 1st positions and all the other factions following. Khador was the first of the losers, the disparity between the first 2 factions and the rest was so evident that no further analysis was necessary. But they nerfed the juggernaut. I'll never understand the balance of this game honestly... And surely I don't care about it so much anymore since there is no one playing it any longer in my area so well, they can sell their overpriced models to someone else.
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Post by fanbloodytastic on Mar 20, 2018 5:47:47 GMT
It's quite obvious that CID is establishing a new power level above what previously was considered balanced. And if you'll just let me grab my tinfoil hat I can explain why. With the new release model, players need to be encouraged to switch to the "next big thing", whereas previously they only had to buy a handful of models to stay up to date. A larger investment requires more encouragement. This is why lich3 slayers and Nemo3 are the 2 most meta bending lists? I’m with mcdermott. This forum bums me out... most of the threads on general discussion are just an echo chamber of whining about things that just are not true. In general I kind of agree about the forum, but I have to give a shout out to the minion forum on here, it’s definitely my favourite even though I don’t play minions (Yet!). It always seems to have a very positive attitude, with players willing to try out new ideas or give out of the box suggestions, and it has awesome regular content from players (such as Gaston and Azahul’s ongoing articles).
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 20, 2018 8:14:04 GMT
It's quite obvious that CID is establishing a new power level above what previously was considered balanced. And if you'll just let me grab my tinfoil hat I can explain why. With the new release model, players need to be encouraged to switch to the "next big thing", whereas previously they only had to buy a handful of models to stay up to date. A larger investment requires more encouragement. This is why lich3 slayers and Nemo3 are the 2 most meta bending lists? I’m with mcdermott. This forum bums me out... most of the threads on general discussion are just an echo chamber of whining about things that just are not true. You mean Nemo3 who took over once the Strider got "slightly buffed". Otherwise, yes, you managed to find one list that is overpowered without relying new models. Do you want me to list all of the ones that do?
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Post by mcdermott on Mar 20, 2018 8:31:41 GMT
Yknow what, please do. For once lets start seeing the complaining backed by actual statistics.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 20, 2018 8:59:56 GMT
I don't think what we are doing here qualifies as statistics. But your request is reasonable nontheless, so let's go. The first and most obvious is Rasheth2Turtles. Others that come to my mind right now are SkarreHost, Haley3Trenchers and most of Grymkin. KruegerBones and MadrakChamps have a very strong reputation, but I don't see them often enough to say for sure. Trolls and Circle are pretty rare in Germany.
But that's not really the point. I don't think Meta Boogeyman are the most important part of this. Instead, look at what people are playing. What lists are most common? You'll generally see lists that either lean heavily on post-CID models and themes. And this is across most factions.
Please also bear in mind: This is not a complaint, this is an elaboration to my explanation given earlier (which, admittedly involves a lot of speculation towards motives). Complaining here is utterly pointless as nobody on this board has any influence on the game. At least until we reach the point of house rules becoming prevalent. And to add to that: I wouldn't have much of an issue with this new power level being established, if I could reasonably expect most factions and models to arrive at said power level within the next ~2 years.
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Mar 20, 2018 12:32:24 GMT
I don't think what we are doing here qualifies as statistics. But your request is reasonable nontheless, so let's go. The first and most obvious is Rasheth2Turtles. Others that come to my mind right now are SkarreHost, Haley3Trenchers and most of Grymkin. KruegerBones and MadrakChamps have a very strong reputation, but I don't see them often enough to say for sure. Trolls and Circle are pretty rare in Germany. But that's not really the point. I don't think Meta Boogeyman are the most important part of this. Instead, look at what people are playing. What lists are most common? You'll generally see lists that either lean heavily on post-CID models and themes. And this is across most factions. Please also bear in mind: This is not a complaint, this is an elaboration to my explanation given earlier (which, admittedly involves a lot of speculation towards motives). Complaining here is utterly pointless as nobody on this board has any influence on the game. At least until we reach the point of house rules becoming prevalent. And to add to that: I wouldn't have much of an issue with this new power level being established, if I could reasonably expect most factions and models to arrive at said power level within the next ~2 years. Soooo... battle engines is your complaint? Because I don’t think CID for Banes, Wolds, or Champs was there to sell new releases... those are things most people had collected from mark 2. I haven’t seen anything egregious from Trenchers... and complaints against Grymkin are typically over reactionary nonsense from people who just don’t play against them enough.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 20, 2018 13:01:44 GMT
Okay my observations are nonsense. Noted, have a nice day.
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 20, 2018 13:50:43 GMT
this threads taking a little time out. Go cool your heads.
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 21, 2018 1:51:17 GMT
Unlocked. Behave.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 21, 2018 2:03:48 GMT
Ive felt the Power Creep a little, but I think it has to do with PP doing a better job writing their models. The rules are more stream lined this edition and its easier to write models with several complimenting rules without unintended rulings (though Gang Fighter is a good example that this still happens.). Thagrosh2 got better but it wasnt just his stats going up. Dropping Flesh Eater and changing his spray from Fire to Magical Weapons so he could clear incorporeal models and throw a low pow nuke at Protectorate jacks is an elegant solution thats good design more than Power Creep. Several instances of good design is bound to make a model feel like Power Creep.
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Post by bskhacker on Mar 21, 2018 12:25:15 GMT
Ive felt the Power Creep a little, but I think it has to do with PP doing a better job writing their models. The rules are more stream lined this edition and its easier to write models with several complimenting rules without unintended rulings (though Gang Fighter is a good example that this still happens.). Thagrosh2 got better but it wasnt just his stats going up. Dropping Flesh Eater and changing his spray from Fire to Magical Weapons so he could clear incorporeal models and throw a low pow nuke at Protectorate jacks is an elegant solution thats good design more than Power Creep. Several instances of good design is bound to make a model feel like Power Creep. I agree completely. There are a lot of models that are generally weaker in this edition from the last until CID. I feel that now that can give more time to smaller sets of models with more testers they are able to make better design choices and that in turn can be perceived as power creep.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Mar 21, 2018 13:28:18 GMT
It's powercreep nonetheless, for the simple fact that it's the new releases that are setting the bar to which models are now "designed well". So maybe they are getting better at designing their game, that doesn't stop powercreep from occuring at the same time with plenty of older models that aren't part of dynamic dynamic updates left biting their dust for a long time to come.
Edit: as an example, cryx collosals could have used the treatment legion and khador got. Incidentally those aren't new releases but you get my drift.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 21, 2018 13:42:37 GMT
It's powercreep nonetheless, for the simple fact that it's the new releases that are setting the bar to which models are now "designed well". So maybe they are getting better at designing their game, that doesn't stop powercreep from occuring at the same time with plenty of older models that aren't part of dynamic dynamic updates left biting their dust for a long time to come. Edit: as an example, cryx collosals could have used the treatment legion and khador got. Incidentally those aren't new releases but you get my drift. This I agree with. The problem is basically that they don't think of everything at the same time. They saw that Colossals needed a push, so fiddled around a bit with the Victor, Archangel and Blightbringer. When they did the Thrall CID, they did touch up the Sepulcher, but nowhere near to the levels of those three. The same could be said about the Kraken, who would probably have fit into the Black Fleet CID, but wasn't included, because they only started redoing the colossals with the Blighted Ogrun. The changes to the "new" ones are most likely justified, but that doesn't mean that others don't also need changes, but since they got their CID "early", the missed out. When they thought that Battle Engines weren't doing well, they did a general CID for them, which was a good idea. For specific casters and models specific to a certain faction I do think it's better to keep them within their own CID, but for an archetype such as Colossals, I think a general CID might be warranted. Note that doesn't mean all Colossals need to change, the TEP also basically stayed the same after the BE CID. They do also kind of seem to change their mind about what is ok and what isn't. For instance, Skarre 3 lost a lot of hit point since her first rules set (justified), but MacKay is still at 36 since the beginning of the cycle. This isn't necessarily a problem (I haven't tested it), as there are many variables to consider to determine if this is problematic, but I can understand that people see it as arbitrary. I don't agree that newer and newer models are better than the previous cycles though (such as suggesting that Crucible Guard would be better than Grymkin). As such, there isn't really a "power creep". The average is getting slightly higher, but it's not determined by outliers; it's exactly because there are less and less outliers (on both ends). I'm not saying that this is your viewpoint by the way, it's just a general statement.
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