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Post by macdaddy on Mar 19, 2018 16:53:11 GMT
mcdermott, I don't disagree. But I feel casters like The convergence lady, solos like the trancers, and the light warjacks are just way too good at what they do.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 19, 2018 17:14:57 GMT
yeah MoW doesn't seem to be an issue. I will say Crucible guard is looking like grymkin 2.0. I have a bad feeling of the impact they will have on the meta if unchanged CG has too many moving parts IMO. They've got one, maybe 2 above the curve units and everything else looks good "if you manage to land all the buffs and debuffs" Kick one peg from their combos and its not nearly as impressive. yeah, and grymkin don't work right without their corpse tokens (which they can start the game with, and pass around).
If that kind of thing is to be a meaningful restriction, it has to involve a little more effort and risk to actually set up those pegs.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 19, 2018 17:27:51 GMT
It's quite obvious that CID is establishing a new power level above what previously was considered balanced. And if you'll just let me grab my tinfoil hat I can explain why. With the new release model, players need to be encouraged to switch to the "next big thing", whereas previously they only had to buy a handful of models to stay up to date. A larger investment requires more encouragement.
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Post by mcdermott on Mar 19, 2018 20:17:07 GMT
mcdermott , I don't disagree. But I feel casters like The convergence lady, solos like the trancers, and the light warjacks are just way too good at what they do. The thing is, every faction has 1 or 2 things that are way too good at what they do though. We've just grown used to the old factions OP bullshit and learned to fight it over time. The issue is people see this stuff all at once now without the years of learning to play against it and they get whipped for a while.
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 19, 2018 20:24:50 GMT
mcdermott things already existing that are way too good for their cost, do not justify adding more things like that to the game. I know from past discussions you and I disagree here. But the whole point of CiD is to help balance new releases, letting things through we know are overpowered or above the curve because other factions have things like the siege animatrax, or Nemo3, just seems like flawed logic. If anything we should try to keep everything within a healthy realm of acceptable. I fail to see how a 3 point model, with natural smite, the ability to boost, and a reach pow 14 weapon, plus force barrier, pathfinder AND infantry control when it dies, is acceptable.
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Post by mcdermott on Mar 19, 2018 20:25:27 GMT
CG has too many moving parts IMO. They've got one, maybe 2 above the curve units and everything else looks good "if you manage to land all the buffs and debuffs" Kick one peg from their combos and its not nearly as impressive. yeah, and grymkin don't work right without their corpse tokens (which they can start the game with, and pass around).
If that kind of thing is to be a meaningful restriction, it has to involve a little more effort and risk to actually set up those pegs.
You mean other than tossing an upkeep from the caster and then landing 2 rat 5 sprays from a second heavy the way people were using to compare the toro to the jugg? Cause thats a lot of moving parts tbqh. 2 heavies in combat range, a caster close enough to throw a spell.
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Post by boardroomhero on Mar 19, 2018 20:37:45 GMT
mcdermott things already existing that are way too good for their cost, do not justify adding more things like that to the game. I know from past discussions you and I disagree here. But the whole point of CiD is to help balance new releases, letting things through we know are overpowered or above the curve because other factions have things like the siege animatrax, or Nemo3, just seems like flawed logic. If anything we should try to keep everything within a healthy realm of acceptable. I fail to see how a 3 point model, with natural smite, the ability to boost, and a reach pow 14 weapon, plus force barrier, pathfinder AND infantry control when it dies, is acceptable. You do realize that this sounds just like a Shyeel Magister, only it has to hurt itself to get the same accuracy, has no ranged attack, and explodes. I would hardly call that clearly unacceptable, unless we want the new balance level to be terrible models only.
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 19, 2018 20:57:16 GMT
mcdermott yeah...way to keep the discussion reasonable man really helps emphasize your point. but yeah, because I disagree with you I obviously want a boring game. boardroomheroThe magister is 2 points more expensive, is only FA2 and only has 1/2” Melee And combo Smite. (Edit origionnally was comparing with the artificer) ]This solo has smite with 2” reach all the time. Including free strikes which is my biggest issue.Meaning a 3 Point solo can literally hold up an entire heavy by itself. Make it 5 points and I’ll stop complaining.
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Post by mcdermott on Mar 19, 2018 20:58:50 GMT
One of the big beefs i have with game discussion online is that there's this underthread that only complete balance = fun. Or even if its not complete balance surely its balance closer than what you already have. The position is horseshit. Two HUGE examples in my time were one of L5R's last editions and 4th ed d+d. There was an arc where every faction but 1 had achieved victory in one of the 50 major tournaments for L5R. The highest level of competitive balance the game had ever achieved. The playerbase hated it. They railed against it, they used it as an example of what design should never ever ever do. 4th ed D+d was way better balanced than 3.X. They toned down the power spells significantly, boosted the weaker classes so that everyone had near parity. Adjusted the game so that the narrative power could be shared amongst classes that lacked it in the 3.0 environment. And then it handed the top selling RPG position over to pathfinder, which was based on the "broken" 3.0 chassis.
While i agree there is a line where OP things go too far. I'm completely unconvinced that CG crosses it. Their jacks are generally mediocre unless you do a bunch of stuff, which means if you manage to alpha some of their army the synergy begins dying off relatively quickly. Their OP shooting units are even more fragile in melee than the "near unuseable" Pre CID bombardiers and demo corps. Carapace doesn't protect against a charge and your average pow 10 infantry kills them 1 for 1 on average rolls. Their shooting heavy is a slightly more versatile, much easier to kill destroyer, their toro is a slightly better jugg with counter charge, IF you manage to land some debuffs first.
An army comprised of slightly worse, or a bit better than mediocre models in other factions that get great if you get to land all your buffs/debuffs is not going to skew balance by much after a few months of playing against it.
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Post by mcdermott on Mar 19, 2018 21:00:38 GMT
mcdermott yeah...way to keep the discussion reasonable man really helps emphasize your point. "Pow 18AP wont be OP as long as its a * attack" "Ryssovas are terrible and unuseable, oh wait they're actually pretty decent" "Juggernauts raising 1 point totally warrants multiple throwaway complaints in many threads" Shoe fits, time to put it on.
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 19, 2018 21:02:23 GMT
I never said...any of that. You need to calm down.
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Post by mcdermott on Mar 19, 2018 21:05:59 GMT
Calmer than you are dude...
And you didn't but my commentary is regarding "this forum" as a whole.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 19, 2018 21:10:56 GMT
mcdermott yeah...way to keep the discussion reasonable man really helps emphasize your point. "Pow 18AP wont be OP as long as its a * attack" "Ryssovas are terrible and unuseable, oh wait they're actually pretty decent" "Juggernauts raising 1 point totally warrants multiple throwaway complaints in many threads" Shoe fits, time to put it on. All any of those establish is that faction bias exists. Also, Ryssovass are, at best, passable. I don't know where you're getting off saying that they're even 'pretty decent'. They see niche play in a very small number of lists, and that's it. Also, the forums =/= members of the forums. Some people have dumbshit ideas (Flank on Satyxis Raiders, e.g.), others have no concept of balance or are insanely faction biased, but some people actually try to give well reasoned and (reasonably) well-informed feedback. Also, I didn't play L5R, but the D&D 4E comparison is horribly flawed, because D&D is not, and has never been, a 'competitive' game. Of course perfect balance (via aggressive streamlining) isn't desirable in an open-ended RPG. Of course people hated the edition for breaking the RPG element of D&D into a series of linear dice rolls. That has absolutely no bearing on the appropriateness of 'balance' as a consideration in a competitive tabletop wargame. It's just not even comparable.
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Post by mcdermott on Mar 19, 2018 21:16:39 GMT
complaints about caster martial disparity abound. 4th ed killed it and people hated the edition. Balance in a dice related game eventually condenses into a series of linear dice rolls. As for where i'm getting that they're pretty decent after testing? Maybe the thread on the ret forum where people who've actually played them refer to them as pretty decent. lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/6981/talk-ryssovass
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Mar 19, 2018 23:30:51 GMT
It's quite obvious that CID is establishing a new power level above what previously was considered balanced. And if you'll just let me grab my tinfoil hat I can explain why. With the new release model, players need to be encouraged to switch to the "next big thing", whereas previously they only had to buy a handful of models to stay up to date. A larger investment requires more encouragement. This is why lich3 slayers and Nemo3 are the 2 most meta bending lists? I’m with mcdermott. This forum bums me out... most of the threads on general discussion are just an echo chamber of whining about things that just are not true.
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