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Post by ninjastars on Mar 18, 2018 5:29:21 GMT
So I have a tournament in a month where I know the first match will be against a really good harbinger player. This is the list he’s been using for a while
Theme: Faithful Masses
Harbinger +24
– Hierophant 3
– Devout 9
– Crusader 10
– Guardian 15
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist 3
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist 3
The Covenant of Menoth 4
High Paladin Dartan Vilmon 6(0)
Wrack 1
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord 4
Vassal Mechanik 1
Champion of the Order of the Wall 8
Choir of Menoth (min) 4
Idrian Skirmishers 15
– Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain and Guide 5
Horgenhold Forge Guard
– Attendant Priest
I don’t have a lot of experience vs harby and I was looking for advice on what list to bring, how to play. I’d like to stay within adr because it’s masters format, so I’d be able to bring a sideboard, but i could step outside of it if there’s a good reason to.
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ravenfire
Junior Strategist
Me Mulg me SMASSSSSHHHH
Posts: 244
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Post by ravenfire on Mar 18, 2018 7:40:22 GMT
My first advice would be to go into boh for the rfp. This will stop martering.
Second. Some clouds would be nice to protect your models from the iridian unit.
Third your own ranged units to force marters and get him down on heath.
Fourth. Make him cast purification. This will cost him lots of focus he can not use otherwise.
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Post by grabsnikk on Mar 18, 2018 9:08:02 GMT
My first advice would be to go into boh for the rfp. This will stop martering. Second. Some clouds would be nice to protect your models from the iridian unit. Third your own ranged units to force marters and get him down on heath. Fourth. Make him cast purification. This will cost him lots of focus he can not use otherwise. Band of Heroes really doesn't do anything to stop Martyrdom which triggers on DISABLED. Takedown triggers on BOXED so the theme benefit not applicable here at all as it doesn't stop Harbinger from using Martyrdom. Clouds are one option to use as they help protect your forces from guns as they close in. Kolgrimma could be quite useful here as she has clouds and a magical spray which will help when dealing with Vilmon and Paladins. My personal favourite for playing into Menoth is Gunnbjorn. His feat will let you deliver your models into combat without being molested by shooting. Rockwall is really good against Menoth jacks as they do not have pathfinder and therfore you can really hamper their manouverability. Explosivo can allow your beasts to shoot Menoth Heavies even through the Choir buffs and gives you some RFP against High Reclaimer lists. Snipe is really good on a Glacier King. If you play Gunnbjorn in Storm of the North, and take a Glacier King with the Northkin Stone Attachment then the Glacier King can aim and put three fully boosted Guided Fire RNG16 POW16 crit freeze shots into Harbinger which considering she is DEF14 ARM 14 will pose a significant threat to the Menoth Player such that he will try to protect Harbinger a lot and may not Martyr much. The key to dealing Martyrdom is having a multitude of attacks to force Harbinger to Martyr either a little or a lot either one of which.can be quite strong as long as you have some boostable gyns which can threaten an assassination. Yoi don't really need to worry about Purification as if the Menoth player casts it he is more vulnerable to a ranged assassination through either Bombers or GK and he will most likely nkt be able to fully fuel multiple warjacks without being vulnerable.
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ravenfire
Junior Strategist
Me Mulg me SMASSSSSHHHH
Posts: 244
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Post by ravenfire on Mar 18, 2018 10:23:13 GMT
Hmm Iam a bit confused. The theme does not state that it is takedown, but specified specific effects which are the same as take down. Take down does trigger on disabled, but only interacts with tough as far as I can tell. It prevents tough And in the boxed fase take down may remove from play the model preventing things like soul collection. My only question is. Is there a ruling that says that takedown prevents healing If so it will also prevent martyr
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Post by Trollock on Mar 18, 2018 11:31:30 GMT
Back when Harby was all the menoth players ever used (AKA MK2) the key thing was to have a credible ranged threat, so you can prevent Harby from just Martyring down to 1 if she wants to. Make sure you have something that threatens her if she gets too brave. If she can just hang back and martyr and then heal up she will ruin your game. If she is scared of dying she cant really do that, and you will have a much better time.
The monks are incredibly annoying. Having something to lower their DEF means you can more easily "kill" them and force martyrs. Something like Grim 1 could be very effective. Just dont build a totally ranged focused army, or you would have a bad time against their other jack spam list...
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Post by grabsnikk on Mar 18, 2018 17:54:03 GMT
Hmm Iam a bit confused. The theme does not state that it is takedown, but specified specific effects which are the same as take down. Take down does trigger on disabled, but only interacts with tough as far as I can tell. It prevents tough And in the boxed fase take down may remove from play the model preventing things like soul collection. My only question is. Is there a ruling that says that takedown prevents healing If so it will also prevent martyr No takedown does not prevent healing, only tough rolls.
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 18, 2018 19:15:18 GMT
As Trollock has said The best way to beat Harby is to point guns at her. Grim 1 seems like a really strong option. His Feat, + mantrap to knockdown Shield guards. He also allows himself and up to 2 other models to ignore cover so the wall becomes meaningless. You can probably consistently assasinate Harby and have enough attacks to grind her down on attrition. Also, continuous effects make her sad.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 18, 2018 19:32:52 GMT
Harbinger is a much more playable matchup when her arm maxes at 19 and not 25. Even getting a troll light onto her can do enough damage to kill her with buffs. Shes the tiny, underage, squishy center of her army. But as to your oppnents list, it looks quite solid. My only advice about it is if you kill the attendant priest the forge guard lose a lot of effectiveness. Awe doesnt help them much and they lose crusaders call and martyrdom. If you can get a fire eater spray or something on him...
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Mar 18, 2018 19:49:21 GMT
I beat a VERY similar list at LVO by dicing things with a Glacier King, but in general I think Madrak SotN beats this. High volume of quality attacks and high enough defense to give their troops problems, your feat ensures you'll hit their lines first, and they really struggle to kill the Glacier King if you can position around the threat of the Hammer Dwarves and grind them down.
Like others have said, Grim1 is also a decent option. I'd also like Gunnbjorn into this.
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 18, 2018 19:52:51 GMT
Harbinger is a much more playable matchup when her arm maxes at 19 and not 25. Even getting a troll light onto her can do enough damage to kill her with buffs. Shes the tiny, underage, squishy center of her army. But as to your oppnents list, it looks quite solid. My only advice about it is if you kill the attendant priest the forge guard lose a lot of effectiveness. Awe doesnt help them much and they lose crusaders call and martyrdom. If you can get a fire eater spray or something on him... They will martyr the priest if they are any good. So make sure you commit a good number of attacks to it and try to force other martyr damage before you go for the priest.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 18, 2018 20:05:52 GMT
Harbinger is a much more playable matchup when her arm maxes at 19 and not 25. Even getting a troll light onto her can do enough damage to kill her with buffs. Shes the tiny, underage, squishy center of her army. But as to your oppnents list, it looks quite solid. My only advice about it is if you kill the attendant priest the forge guard lose a lot of effectiveness. Awe doesnt help them much and they lose crusaders call and martyrdom. If you can get a fire eater spray or something on him... They will martyr the priest if they are any good. So make sure you commit a good number of attacks to it and try to force other martyr damage before you go for the priest. Totally fair. Theres an added Order of Operations kink based on her life pool thats important to consider before attacking pieces.
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Post by greenjello on Mar 19, 2018 1:09:50 GMT
I'm a traditionalist. What you need to do is get the occupy authority of Menoth to accuse her of witchcraft, and burn her at the stake. Easy peasy!
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Mar 19, 2018 9:10:42 GMT
Played the matchup at the Conquest event twice and the way I see it you have three options.
Play Grim2, he hard counters Harby and your opponent will absolutely not drop her into you as you can't martyr models with Mortality on them. This means you'll probably see the second list which would more than likely be Amon. The European Menoth players are all in a big facebook chat and they discuss this. He will know not to drop into Grim2
Or
Play Madrak1 into it, It's a very grindy game and going first is hugely important as is knowing when to cast guided hand. Some turns Guided hand is way more important than Even ground! You also need a Madrak1 list with a high number of attacks plus you want to threaten their caster so you want a list with a bomber in.
Or
Go the spray route. The list keeps Harby safe behind a wall with 3 shield guards. The best way round all of this is to take Grissel2 and a Mountain king. Spray her to death if she gets too low. You can play it in any theme and it'll work.
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tomw
Junior Strategist
Posts: 128
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Post by tomw on Mar 19, 2018 20:23:18 GMT
Play Grim2, he hard counters Harby and your opponent will absolutely not drop her into you as you can't martyr models with Mortality on them. This means you'll probably see the second list which would more than likely be Amon. The European Menoth players are all in a big facebook chat and they discuss this. He will know not to drop into Grim2 Which theme would you be most likely to play Grim2 in?
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Mar 19, 2018 20:34:54 GMT
KC or PoD I'd bet.
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