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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Mar 16, 2018 9:01:55 GMT
Obviously slipstream is a great animus, it has a great gun and it's supermobile. It's also 14 points and I allways feel constricted when I put it in a list, and realised I never gave a carefull thought to which armies really need it and which can do without, and why. Is there anything the seraph wants alongside it (Im allways tempted to add a bloodseer, and at that point want an angelius too). I should really get more games in and find out, but in the meantime I thought Id scratch your collective brain on the matter.
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Post by voidbender on Mar 16, 2018 12:14:58 GMT
The Seraph is important when your list 'needs' the alpha, so most of legion heavy beast lists.
Is also powerful when your warlock wants to contribute personally at close range like twins, Abby, etc, though I did well with the twins without it and the temptation to overextended Rhyas as the start of a piece trade.
Flare is occasionally useful, say if you have archers or really need the bfs to land kiss on a stealthed heavy, or for the throne with its non-boostable attacks.
That said, it's not mandatory as many would claim. My most successful list to date has been an Abby2 list with no Seraph.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 16, 2018 12:49:23 GMT
I see the Seraph as more of a tool to make up for the short coming of other models. The carni and Scythean really benefit quite a lot from the +2. Angels can get to a point of out threatening most anything else with it as well. But you have to think about the full cost. Would you really pay 14 points just for that chance of getting the Alpha? With premeasuring being so easy, the opponent can just ask "what's your max threat range?" At that point either you lie and leave out the +2 and thus loose a friend. Or you tell them the truth and lose any chance at that max range alpha.
I have basically stopped using the thing. It's not even in my Abby list where it could put Proteus to a stupid high 16" threat on the 4" drag. It just doesn't bring enough to the table by itself in my opinion, no matter how strong that 2" placement is.
But that doesn't mean it's not fantastic if you build a strategy around it. I've just built my strategy around not having. that's all.
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Post by copperflame on Mar 16, 2018 14:09:35 GMT
I am a big fan of the Seraph, not just because of its animus but a boostable flare (and sometimes more than one) has helped me out more than a few times. But specifically for the animus... the 'get out of jail free' side of the animus shouldn't be over looked either. Backing up 2" to get crutch ranged shot off (and since the Seraph has apparition, she does so herself) or jank 2" to the side to set up that assassination run without a free strike.
Now, I do agree - you can play without a Seraph and not really miss it (depending on your game/setup). I will agree with @forever_blight - premeasuring has eroded some of the value there since the question "what is your max threat range" is like having to tell your opponent all your dirty tricks and leaving you having to play fair (that Legion doesn't always... never... wants to do).
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Mar 16, 2018 16:08:38 GMT
Personally, I can never make the points work in a list where I would really want it. It has a home in PT, OoA and Ravens, but I would limit that mostly to OoA.
Ravens is often going to lack the beast brick that it really wants to support. I have built a list with the Seraph in Ravens with Lyl3 (who adores the Seraph) but I wasn't a huge fan. Any list that gets free points from models is going to have a hard time squeezing in two workhorse heavies and a Seraph.
I run PT with a BB, which doesnt leave much space for the Seraph. PT also lacks a bit of the beast brick that it wants.
I really love it in OoA beast brick lists that really want the Alpha. For me it gets run with Vayl2 and Abby2. Vayl2 lists really abuse the animus, and Abby2 really needs to murder a lot on the Alpha. I also tend not to use it in OoA if I build too heavily into thrones for obvious reasons.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 16, 2018 17:23:36 GMT
I see the Seraph as more of a tool to make up for the short coming of other models. The carni and Scythean really benefit quite a lot from the +2. Angels can get to a point of out threatening most anything else with it as well. But you have to think about the full cost. Would you really pay 14 points just for that chance of getting the Alpha? With premeasuring being so easy, the opponent can just ask "what's your max threat range?" At that point either you lie and leave out the +2 and thus loose a friend. Or you tell them the truth and lose any chance at that max range alpha. I have basically stopped using the thing. It's not even in my Abby list where it could put Proteus to a stupid high 16" threat on the 4" drag. It just doesn't bring enough to the table by itself in my opinion, no matter how strong that 2" placement is. But that doesn't mean it's not fantastic if you build a strategy around it. I've just built my strategy around not having. that's all. This is a pretty interesting way to look at it (definitely like the point you made about "player honesty"). But not sure I can agree with you regarding the alpha. Generally the person with the longest threat range gets the alpha, at least with the two pieces involved. The opponent may not "give it to you", but it he doesn't than he has to stay away. Either giving up scenario pressure or never getting within his own threat range. But getting the first strike isn't often enough. What you send in has to kill we it goes after, or be able to survive his counter strike, or at least be able to tie up his forces while you take scenario pieces. So the Seraph's slipstream has to have other appropriate pieces in your army to "give the alpha to". Things that hit either equal to or above their points value... Which isn't easy to do in Legion (though getting easier with cheaper sharks now). The other thing it does is really make the whole "flight/Pathfinder" thing really pay off... IF you have a forest or persistent clouds in play as terrain THAT YOU CAN USE. For example, Carny walks up behind forest and chills. Enemy can't charge him because can't see him. Next turn, Seraph goes, slips him into forest, and now he gets the charge on the enemy who couldn't do so back. But you need a forest (or cloud) in the right position to do this (this is my big problem with Legion... We have no way to force this situation. If we had forest or cloud making, I think Legion would really come into its own, but tangent) Those are the two big reasons to use Seraph. It's expensive tool to get it that on its own doesn't threaten enough for its point value. But I think if you aren't using it than you are missing out on really what makes Legion distinctive from other factions. Otherwise you are just playing "harder to win with Hordes". Again, to me. Obviously it's utility in infantry based armies is significantly less. Or in ranged armies. Etc. But Flare is still a thing and pretty much always useful. So yes, I would probably use it every time unless I was playing mostly melee infantry (so, Primal Terrors)
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gubs
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 3
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Post by gubs on Mar 16, 2018 18:51:19 GMT
With premeasuring being so easy, the opponent can just ask "what's your max threat range?" At that point either you lie and leave out the +2 and thus loose a friend. Or you tell them the truth and lose any chance at that max range alpha. Dude. You can't lie to your opponents.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Mar 16, 2018 19:10:48 GMT
Is it a lie though? We have many movement effects we can stack. Repulsor, attractor, slipstream, rhyas' feat, pulls, knockbacks, warpath.... when someone asks you for threatrange, what are supposed to even tell? I don't think you are required to disclose all your plans and distances unless someone asks for, say, "max distance with slipstream and proteus' pull", and if he forgets Repulsor could somehow play into that situation as well but forgets to ask, that's on him.
Am I a dick for thinking like that? We play a tricksy army if we want to, it seems unreasonable to ask us to give it all up on such a general question as "max dist".
---
Nice to learn seraph isn't considered as mandatory as I thought it would be, thx for the input.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 16, 2018 19:31:24 GMT
...and thus loose a friend.... Dude. You can't lie to your opponents. It was never meant to be taken as a serious option.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Mar 16, 2018 19:35:39 GMT
Is it a lie though? We have many movement effects we can stack. Repulsor, attractor, slipstream, rhyas' feat, pulls, knockbacks, warpath.... when someone asks you for threatrange, what are supposed to even tell? I don't think you are required to disclose all your plans and distances unless someone asks for, say, "max distance with slipstream and proteus' pull", and if he forgets Repulsor could somehow play into that situation as well but forgets to ask, that's on him. Am I a dick for thinking like that? We play a tricksy army if we want to, it seems unreasonable to ask us to give it all up on such a general question as "max dist". --- Nice to learn seraph isn't considered as mandatory as I thought it would be, thx for the input. It is, and if you have any doubt you should clarify with the tournament organizer. You don't need to point out the many ways you can use a two-inch shuffle (getting LoS, getting unengaged) but if they ask the max threat range then you need to answer honestly. You can play a tricky army, but that needs to be bourne out of a large number of tools you have at your disposal. Besides, who wants to win just because they left their caster an inch too close because you told a white lie.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Mar 16, 2018 19:51:55 GMT
But with an angelius, proteus and seraph in the game that's a potential +9"(?), and "max 19 on scythean" doesn't seem like a.... helpfull answer either. "11 including slipstream" does however, or maybe "11 including slipstream and don't forget things like pull", something like that?
Serious question on my part.
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Post by streetpizza on Mar 16, 2018 19:55:17 GMT
Is it a lie though? We have many movement effects we can stack. Repulsor, attractor, slipstream, rhyas' feat, pulls, knockbacks, warpath.... when someone asks you for threatrange, what are supposed to even tell? I don't think you are required to disclose all your plans and distances unless someone asks for, say, "max distance with slipstream and proteus' pull", and if he forgets Repulsor could somehow play into that situation as well but forgets to ask, that's on him. Am I a dick for thinking like that? We play a tricksy army if we want to, it seems unreasonable to ask us to give it all up on such a general question as "max dist". --- Nice to learn seraph isn't considered as mandatory as I thought it would be, thx for the input. It is, and if you have any doubt you should clarify with the tournament organizer. You don't need to point out the many ways you can use a two-inch shuffle (getting LoS, getting unengaged) but if they ask the max threat range then you need to answer honestly. You can play a tricky army, but that needs to be bourne out of a large number of tools you have at your disposal. Besides, who wants to win just because they left their caster an inch too close because you told a white lie. If you're talking tournaments Twity this one has been dealt with ad nauseum. The official rule is you don't have to disclose your plans and "what is your maximum threat range" is an open ended question you don't have to answer. Instead you can just offer your opponent your cards to read on their clock. Whether or not this is a dick move IS up for debate but the ruling from a judges standpoint has been decided for some time.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 16, 2018 20:03:55 GMT
This is a pretty interesting way to look at it (definitely like the point you made about "player honesty"). But not sure I can agree with you regarding the alpha. Generally the person with the longest threat range gets the alpha, at least with the two pieces involved. The opponent may not "give it to you", but it he doesn't than he has to stay away. Either giving up scenario pressure or never getting within his own threat range. But getting the first strike isn't often enough. What you send in has to kill we it goes after, or be able to survive his counter strike, or at least be able to tie up his forces while you take scenario pieces. So the Seraph's slipstream has to have other appropriate pieces in your army to "give the alpha to". Things that hit either equal to or above their points value... Which isn't easy to do in Legion (though getting easier with cheaper sharks now). The other thing it does is really make the whole "flight/Pathfinder" thing really pay off... IF you have a forest or persistent clouds in play as terrain THAT YOU CAN USE. For example, Carny walks up behind forest and chills. Enemy can't charge him because can't see him. Next turn, Seraph goes, slips him into forest, and now he gets the charge on the enemy who couldn't do so back. But you need a forest (or cloud) in the right position to do this (this is my big problem with Legion... We have no way to force this situation. If we had forest or cloud making, I think Legion would really come into its own, but tangent) Those are the two big reasons to use Seraph. It's expensive tool to get it that on its own doesn't threaten enough for its point value. But I think if you aren't using it than you are missing out on really what makes Legion distinctive from other factions. Otherwise you are just playing "harder to win with Hordes". Again, to me. Obviously it's utility in infantry based armies is significantly less. Or in ranged armies. Etc. But Flare is still a thing and pretty much always useful. So yes, I would probably use it every time unless I was playing mostly melee infantry (so, Primal Terrors) I agree. All very much credible points. As you said "you have to get there, kill, and survive" [paraphrased]. The way I see it - If I have to commit in list building a (now) 18 pt Carni and a 14 pt Seraph to get that Alpha strike, the Carni has to kill 32pts of enemy [noun]. That trade has never happened for me. I doubt it happens for many people. But as you said the Seraph is not an empty animus battery. But can it really finish whatever the Carni started? Can it clear 10+ points of infantry while still being in position to Slipstream the Carni? Is it worth advancing my caster up and around where the Carni is to cast it that way? Many, many times the answers ends up being that no, it's just not worth that much to me. Now, the second aspect you went over is the reason I do not run the Seraph. Infantry heavy armies. I usually only run, at most, 3 heavy warbeast. More often it's only 2. That is not enough to really make that 14pt wanna-be heavy worth the investment. Again this type of list composition is strictly personal preference. So I would never say that the Seraph does not have it's uses. I did mention it is a tool, I wasn't being sarcastic. It's a keystone of Legion and can really make or break a list/game. It has many good uses where it can really swing the balance of power for you. I just have a personal playstyle and the Seraph doesn't fit. I have learned to play without it. I do quite well with out it. But that doesn't mean anyone reading this has to stop using the Seraph. I'm just trying to give some advice/food-for-thought that comes from a different perspective.
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twity
Junior Strategist
Posts: 179
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Post by twity on Mar 16, 2018 21:08:29 GMT
It is, and if you have any doubt you should clarify with the tournament organizer. You don't need to point out the many ways you can use a two-inch shuffle (getting LoS, getting unengaged) but if they ask the max threat range then you need to answer honestly. You can play a tricky army, but that needs to be bourne out of a large number of tools you have at your disposal. Besides, who wants to win just because they left their caster an inch too close because you told a white lie. If you're talking tournaments Twity this one has been dealt with ad nauseum. The official rule is you don't have to disclose your plans and "what is your maximum threat range" is an open ended question you don't have to answer. Instead you can just offer your opponent your cards to read on their clock. Whether or not this is a dick move IS up for debate but the ruling from a judges standpoint has been decided for some time. Our local events you have to disclose everything when they ask something along the lines of "what do you have that extends your threat range" Still good to know what the official ruling is, I haven't been to national events in a while.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 16, 2018 21:38:01 GMT
I feel like I start with 22 points of seraph/naga in most lists, but if I can get away with Carnivean/Bog Trog Mist Speaker I like the list more. The Flare gun is my favorite thing on the Seraph as having an eyeless sight boostable Def debuff does so much, and any turn Im not using Slipstream to threat extend Im using it to Slipstream an extended Seraph back a few inches.
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