Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 14, 2018 17:32:36 GMT
Only if you drop out of theme though. It may come as a surprise to you that out of theme does, in fact, exist. Given that I just mentioned it in the post you just quoted, no, it wouldn't.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Mar 14, 2018 17:49:12 GMT
Edit: I'm being a douche because I'm annoyed with people acting like playing out of theme isn't an option. Sorry, Lanz
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 18:01:01 GMT
Edit: I'm being a douche because I'm annoyed with people acting like playing out of theme isn't an option. Sorry, LanzYou should really just be annoyed with PP then. They are the ones who made it this way. All the players did is follow their lead.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 14, 2018 19:22:38 GMT
Edit: I'm being a douche because I'm annoyed with people acting like playing out of theme isn't an option. Sorry, Lanz You Are Not Wrong. (maybe about the attitude or choice of words, but not the basis of the argument) Playing out of theme is perfectly acceptable and functional. I only have about half or less of my current, set in stone, lists in theme. I've never been walked over in any game against any opponent. It's quite often the other way around. Why? Because not every single player is a pro-level international tournament winner. There are people out there that only play in-theme and they still loose. It's a GAME. People have dismissed me, called me dishonest, devalued my experience, used skewed personal definitions of "competitive" and "casual", and set a lucrative goal post for what makes me credible... But I, and anyone else who wants, can continue to play this game with non-theme lists and find success. (It just takes more work.) Personal preference is still possible in this game. The player can still control how they build lists and play them. PP had yet to lay down a law of "Theme or GTFO" [/rant] Typhon might even get fit into my Kryssa list. I can actually "afford" him. But that will likely only last until Golab gets released because holy cow... Sprint and Pow 17 WM *swoon It also makes my Saeryn list easier to manipulate. Will definitely drop the Carni in my F2 for him... I want to find a way to put him and the AA together under Vayl 1.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 14, 2018 20:45:20 GMT
As of this cid, playing out of theme is as viable as playing legion was prior to cid. Stuff was so expensive that we were desperate for the extra wiggle room. Now you can make a non theme list or a list with fewer free points and not feel like you're a whole point bracket below your opponent.
I still probably won't play out of theme because back in mk2 I decided to pursue the attitude that if I can make it work in theme it's purely beneficial to do so. But I can see others justifying non theme legion more now.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 20:47:54 GMT
Edit: I'm being a douche because I'm annoyed with people acting like playing out of theme isn't an option. Sorry, Lanz You Are Not Wrong. (maybe about the attitude or choice of words, but not the basis of the argument) Playing out of theme is perfectly acceptable and functional. I only have about half or less of my current, set in stone, lists in theme. I've never been walked over in any game against any opponent. It's quite often the other way around. Why? Because not every single player is a pro-level international tournament winner. There are people out there that only play in-theme and they still loose. It's a GAME. People have dismissed me, called me dishonest, devalued my experience, used skewed personal definitions of "competitive" and "casual", and set a lucrative goal post for what makes me credible... But I, and anyone else who wants, can continue to play this game with non-theme lists and find success. (It just takes more work.) Personal preference is still possible in this game. The player can still control how they build lists and play them. PP had yet to lay down a law of "Theme or GTFO" [/rant] Typhon might even get fit into my Kryssa list. I can actually "afford" him. But that will likely only last until Golab gets released because holy cow... Sprint and Pow 17 WM *swoon It also makes my Saeryn list easier to manipulate. Will definitely drop the Carni in my F2 for him... I want to find a way to put him and the AA together under Vayl 1. I believe PP's reasoning behind allowing theme-less armies is actually very similar yours. They didn't want to say to people "your armies are suddenly invalid". I also think they didn't want the Herculean task of balancing entire factions, so they went out of the way to make themes "just better" (speaking from a purely competitive perspective, of course), so that way when making revisions down the road, this "better buffer" will prevent them from having to worry about how their changes will affect the balance of theme-less armies. Of course, they didn't do a perfect job of that, and I think Legion is one of those factions that simply isn't better 99% of the time when playing in-theme (though with the impending full release of Primal Terrors, I think that will change some). I think this speaks more to how poorly designed Legion's themes were, but regardless, for most factions, there really isn't much competitive value in playing out of theme. You simply lose too many points and valuable special rules most of the time. I actually just saw a list by Chris Orr that was entirely theme-less and it did very well (Kallus/Blightbringer/Grotesques, if you are curious) I think the biggest reason you find significant clashes with other people on this issue is that most posters, at least the ones that weigh in on the value/balance of models/factions are going to be the competitive players. The casual ones are probably too busy playing and painting to go online to complain about models being lousy for their points, so your points will artificially sound like the fringe minority. I suspect most people don't even consider the idea that there's different kinds of balance for different levels of play. So people will find the idea that "themeless forces matter" an unrelatable perspective, and may get frustrated when someone interjects such a perspective into their discussion (viewing it as derailing the conversation, etc). But fun is fun, and there are many ways to get there. I play in a league in South Jersey that has about 34 people in it. Roughly 5 of them play out of theme. Talking to them about it, they simply aren't making their lists to be the "most competitive possible given the restrictions of their models/faction", but they still enjoy the competitive nature of the league and the game itself and talking about it. They are far from our best players, but they aren't our worst players either. We do think they are "holding themselves back" from doing better, but they are having tons of fun regardless. One thing to me is very clear: when it comes to design concerns over faction and model balance, PP does not concern themselves (much) with theme-less armies. The CiDs alone should make that clear.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 14, 2018 21:02:08 GMT
One thing to me is very clear: when it comes to design concerns over faction and model balance, PP does not concern themselves (much) with theme-less armies. The CiDs alone should make that clear. This sounds like tin foil hat talk to me. It was quite clear from our own Primal Terrors CID that PP does test hypotheses about models out of theme. Typhon did not have his Excessive Healing changed from previous mk3 during Primal Terrors. PP asked players to test Typhon with Abby out of theme to see if the interaction of her feat and his old Excessive Healing were too powerful. It was tested and Presto! Typhons Excessive Healing now grants Rapid Healing so theres no double dipping with Abbys feat. So, yes the CIDs do make it very clear that PP stress tests all the CID models between the end of CID and the release of a Dynamic Update and that they do test things out of theme.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 21:04:38 GMT
One thing to me is very clear: when it comes to design concerns over faction and model balance, PP does not concern themselves (much) with theme-less armies. The CiDs alone should make that clear. This sounds like tin foil hat talk to me. It was quite clear from our own Primal Terrors CID that PP does test hypotheses about models out of theme. Typhon did not have his Excessive Healing changed from previous mk3 during Primal Terrors. PP asked players to test Typhon with Abby out of theme to see if the interaction of her feat and his old Excessive Healing were too powerful. It was tested and Presto! Typhons Excessive Healing now grants Rapid Healing so theres no overlap with Abbys feat. So, yes the CIDs do make it very clear that PP stress tests all the CID models between the end of CID and the release of a Dynamic Update and that they do test things out of theme. I said "much". Yes, they care "some", but it certainly isn't their primary concern. I'd say like 80/20.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 14, 2018 21:07:54 GMT
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 14, 2018 21:13:15 GMT
I said "much". Yes, they care "some", but it certainly isn't their primary concern. I'd say like 80/20. Id argue they do (much). 80/20 is testing themelsss with 20% of the Primal Terrors CID. They tested Typhon more unthemed than they did in Children of the Dragon, Ravens of War and Oracles of Annhilation combined, tho if someone had found problematic interactions there too, Im sure PP would address them.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 21:13:34 GMT
I said "much". Yes, they care "some", but it certainly isn't their primary concern. I'd say like 80/20. Id argue they do (much). There are too many models that are only "viable" in theme for me to agree with that. Gatormen Posse only getting 8 wounds in theme, Ogrun only getting Vengeance in theme, Nephilim Soldiers only getting Unyielding in theme, etc.
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 14, 2018 21:18:46 GMT
There are too many models that are only "viable" in theme for me to agree with that. Gatormen Posse only getting 8 wounds in theme, Ogrun only getting Vengeance in theme, Nephilim Soldiers only getting Unyielding in theme, etc. I dont understand your argument. What does theme bonuses improving models have to do with testing models out of theme? Wouldnt u want copious amounts of themeless data before you hand out theme bonuses?
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 14, 2018 21:30:58 GMT
There are too many models that are only "viable" in theme for me to agree with that. Gatormen Posse only getting 8 wounds in theme, Ogrun only getting Vengeance in theme, Nephilim Soldiers only getting Unyielding in theme, etc. I dont understand your argument. What does theme bonuses improving models have to do with testing models out of theme? Wouldnt u want copious amounts of themeless data before you hand out theme bonuses? Models that are simply "not good" out of theme implies to me that they didn't care about making those models good out of theme. Doubly so when they do a CiD on them and still decide to make them only worth playing in theme. Your Typhon Excessive Healing example certainly displays how they care about things being "too good" out of theme, but it doesn't say they care about addressing under-performing models out of theme. Which again says (to me) their primary focus is on themed armies. Will they let you play out of theme? Sure, go to town. But will try care about those lists being competitively viable? From what I've seen the answer is a resounding "no". Not that I blame them, really. It's a very pragmatic approach.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Mar 15, 2018 9:25:24 GMT
As of this cid, playing out of theme is as viable as playing legion was prior to cid. Stuff was so expensive that we were desperate for the extra wiggle room. Now you can make a non theme list or a list with fewer free points and not feel like you're a whole point bracket below your opponent. Aye! I feel like I was just given a present. All the pointcuts are great, but the unexpected four points off typhon (I was hoping for two, three seemed unreasonable) really pushes legion into a position where playing out of theme leaves you with enough points to play with after two heavies. Since our special rules aren't that great, the added synergy is probably worth more then the extra light we could have gotten (on top of that rule).
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 15, 2018 10:00:09 GMT
You Are Not Wrong. (maybe about the attitude or choice of words, but not the basis of the argument) Playing out of theme is perfectly acceptable and functional. I only have about half or less of my current, set in stone, lists in theme. I've never been walked over in any game against any opponent. It's quite often the other way around. Why? Because not every single player is a pro-level international tournament winner. There are people out there that only play in-theme and they still loose. It's a GAME. People have dismissed me, called me dishonest, devalued my experience, used skewed personal definitions of "competitive" and "casual", and set a lucrative goal post for what makes me credible... But I, and anyone else who wants, can continue to play this game with non-theme lists and find success. (It just takes more work.) Personal preference is still possible in this game. The player can still control how they build lists and play them. PP had yet to lay down a law of "Theme or GTFO" [/rant] Typhon might even get fit into my Kryssa list. I can actually "afford" him. But that will likely only last until Golab gets released because holy cow... Sprint and Pow 17 WM *swoon It also makes my Saeryn list easier to manipulate. Will definitely drop the Carni in my F2 for him... I want to find a way to put him and the AA together under Vayl 1. I believe PP's reasoning behind allowing theme-less armies is actually very similar yours. They didn't want to say to people "your armies are suddenly invalid". I also think they didn't want the Herculean task of balancing entire factions, so they went out of the way to make themes "just better" (speaking from a purely competitive perspective, of course), so that way when making revisions down the road, this "better buffer" will prevent them from having to worry about how their changes will affect the balance of theme-less armies. Of course, they didn't do a perfect job of that, and I think Legion is one of those factions that simply isn't better 99% of the time when playing in-theme (though with the impending full release of Primal Terrors, I think that will change some). I think this speaks more to how poorly designed Legion's themes were, but regardless, for most factions, there really isn't much competitive value in playing out of theme. You simply lose too many points and valuable special rules most of the time. I actually just saw a list by Chris Orr that was entirely theme-less and it did very well (Kallus/Blightbringer/Grotesques, if you are curious) I think the biggest reason you find significant clashes with other people on this issue is that most posters, at least the ones that weigh in on the value/balance of models/factions are going to be the competitive players. The casual ones are probably too busy playing and painting to go online to complain about models being lousy for their points, so your points will artificially sound like the fringe minority. I suspect most people don't even consider the idea that there's different kinds of balance for different levels of play. So people will find the idea that "themeless forces matter" an unrelatable perspective, and may get frustrated when someone interjects such a perspective into their discussion (viewing it as derailing the conversation, etc). But fun is fun, and there are many ways to get there. I play in a league in South Jersey that has about 34 people in it. Roughly 5 of them play out of theme. Talking to them about it, they simply aren't making their lists to be the "most competitive possible given the restrictions of their models/faction", but they still enjoy the competitive nature of the league and the game itself and talking about it. They are far from our best players, but they aren't our worst players either. We do think they are "holding themselves back" from doing better, but they are having tons of fun regardless. One thing to me is very clear: when it comes to design concerns over faction and model balance, PP does not concern themselves (much) with theme-less armies. The CiDs alone should make that clear. The most obvious reason here is a different one: Most people think theme lists are stronger than non-themes because their faction's themes aren't shit.
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