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Post by jisidro on Mar 16, 2018 13:58:02 GMT
You didn't come here to comfort anyone, who you trying to fool? The tears comment alone tells us that. Why you going around in every immunity thread available defending it? Whats your angle? What faction you play that benefit so greatly from this? Or you just a PP fanboy that defend everything they do? So many questions... Based on his activity on here he at least plays legion and Khador. Legions likes this change quite a bit, and Khador probably likes it as well other than Assault Kommandos. Not sure about Khador... I maintain that this change is what prompted the mass immunity in ret's nyss and on storms on winter theme and it royaly Firetrucks sorscha over that continues to face full effects of immunities but now has more of them to deal with. Zerkova gets to shoot anyone now and kommadoes now can get shot in the face... Not sure if matters apart from Kommandos who can't get an opening into the meta.
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 16, 2018 14:19:42 GMT
Based on his activity on here he at least plays legion and Khador. Legions likes this change quite a bit, and Khador probably likes it as well other than Assault Kommandos. Not sure about Khador... I maintain that this change is what prompted the mass immunity in ret's nyss and on storms on winter theme and it royaly Firetrucks sorscha over that continues to face full effects of immunities but now has more of them to deal with. Zerkova gets to shoot anyone now and kommadoes now can get shot in the face... Not sure if matters apart from Kommandos who can't get an opening into the meta. Meh, I think overall, outside of sorchsa, its a positive for khador. Literally nothing has changed for sosrcha that wasn't already a problem.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Mar 17, 2018 17:20:52 GMT
Honestly I like the change in general, although I think it needs some tweaks (I suggested in CiD to have the resistance scale, making it better for single wound infantry) Probably too fiddly a rule, but an option nonetheless
Druids unfortunately just suck. This change will make them suck even more, but what does that really mean? Are they going to collect dust on the shelf at a faster rate than they currently do?
Druids need a complete overhaul, and that will be true both before and after this change. Basically, this is not the hill to die on - save the energy for something that matters like recosting warpwolves and Satyrs. (Or for the love of the Wurm at least getting us a solo to give them pathfinder)
-und_ed
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 17, 2018 17:55:24 GMT
unded, honestly my biggest gripe is now Krueger 2 is going to struggle into Nemo 3, who was already hard for us to answer without Krueger2
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Post by josephkerr on Mar 17, 2018 18:06:07 GMT
Honestly I like the change in general, although I think it needs some tweaks (I suggested in CiD to have the resistance scale, making it better for single wound infantry) Probably too fiddly a rule, but an option nonetheless Druids unfortunately just suck. This change will make them suck even more, but what does that really mean? Are they going to collect dust on the shelf at a faster rate than they currently do? Druids need a complete overhaul, and that will be true both before and after this change. Basically, this is not the hill to die on - save the energy for something that matters like recosting warpwolves and Satyrs. (Or for the love of the Wurm at least getting us a solo to give them pathfinder) -und_ed Theyve mentioned Resistance and said it wont be happening. No invulnerable models and +4 arm fits everyone. No major rebalance of all models and point costs is planned. "My faction cant beat Nemo3 without Immunity" has been rejected several times. Immunity has been changed to not stack, so If a fulcrum is hit with fire/lightning/cold attack, its +4 arm not +12. ll be sure to keep yall updated as things change.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Mar 17, 2018 19:05:56 GMT
unded, honestly my biggest gripe is now Krueger 2 is going to struggle into Nemo 3, who was already hard for us to answer without Krueger2 That’s an issue with Nemo3. You can’t hold the game back because of one OP caster. Let them hotfix Nemo3 if it’s a problem without hamstringing their desire to improve the game. -und_ed
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 17, 2018 19:23:13 GMT
unded , honestly my biggest gripe is now Krueger 2 is going to struggle into Nemo 3, who was already hard for us to answer without Krueger2 That’s an issue with Nemo3. You can’t hold the game back because of one OP caster. Let them hotfix Nemo3 if it’s a problem without hamstringing their desire to improve the game. -und_ed That's fair. But I really doubt Nemo 3 is ever going to be nerfed. We are probably done seeing old guard caster nerfs for a Looonnnnnggg time
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 17, 2018 20:14:33 GMT
That’s an issue with Nemo3. You can’t hold the game back because of one OP caster. Let them hotfix Nemo3 if it’s a problem without hamstringing their desire to improve the game. -und_ed That's fair. But I really doubt Nemo 3 is ever going to be nerfed. We are probably done seeing old guard caster nerfs for a Looonnnnnggg time We had better not be. There's still a (shorter) list of casters that desperately need to be nerfed. Skarre1, Nemo3, Axis, Mordikaar (just the Essence Blast interaction), and possibly Haley3. josephkerr - What you don't seem to understand here is that plenty of people don't much care about what PP has said it's goals are with this change. We disagree with those goals, full stop, and personally, I disagree that any change to immunities was necessary (pre-CG). There's also the fact that what PP says are it's intentions, what PP's intentions actually are, and what they end up doing aren't always the same thing. Gang/KD models 'working as intended', various models 'not needing to be nerfed' right up until the moment the errata went through, the constant flip flopping and mincing of words surround the intended centrality of theme lists in Mk3...PP is neither infallible, not unfailingly honest with it's player base. I for one very much doubt that immunities changing is something that would have been on the radar without the upcoming release of CG.
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Post by maplewhisky on Mar 17, 2018 20:37:35 GMT
We had better not be. There's still a (shorter) list of casters that desperately need to be nerfed. Skarre1, Nemo3, Axis, Mordikaar (just the Essence Blast interaction), and possibly Haley3. Que? Skarre I think is very borderline, she's incredibly linear. Personally much more worried about Ossrum and Derp Turtles. I also think Caine3 and Kara should be nerfed before the seals on their Steamroller prison are broken and they make a return to the game.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 17, 2018 20:54:31 GMT
We had better not be. There's still a (shorter) list of casters that desperately need to be nerfed. Skarre1, Nemo3, Axis, Mordikaar (just the Essence Blast interaction), and possibly Haley3. Que? Skarre I think is very borderline, she's incredibly linear. Personally much more worried about Ossrum and Derp Turtles. I also think Caine3 and Kara should be nerfed before the seals on their Steamroller prison are broken and they make a return to the game. I think there is enough anti (normal) shooting tech in the game that I'm not super concerned about Caine3 and Sloan, and if SR18 is any indication, we're heading for MORE live scenario play, not less, so...not super concerned there. Skarre (and I'll be honest, most of the problem casters) is a problem interaction with one or two models. For her, it's the wraith engine and (especially) Stalkers. For Rasheth, the Derps, For Axis...well, he's a problem period, but ESPECIALLY with the TEP. Even Nemo3 is much less abusive if you remove the Storm Strider from the equation. Hmmm. D'you think they may have screwed the pooch in terms of Battle Engine balance?
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Post by maplewhisky on Mar 17, 2018 21:12:38 GMT
Que? Skarre I think is very borderline, she's incredibly linear. Personally much more worried about Ossrum and Derp Turtles. I also think Caine3 and Kara should be nerfed before the seals on their Steamroller prison are broken and they make a return to the game. I think there is enough anti (normal) shooting tech in the game that I'm not super concerned about Caine3 and Sloan, and if SR18 is any indication, we're heading for MORE live scenario play, not less, so...not super concerned there. Skarre (and I'll be honest, most of the problem casters) is a problem interaction with one or two models. For her, it's the wraith engine and (especially) Stalkers. For Rasheth, the Derps, For Axis...well, he's a problem period, but ESPECIALLY with the TEP. Even Nemo3 is much less abusive if you remove the Storm Strider from the equation. Hmmm. D'you think they may have screwed the pooch in terms of Battle Engine balance? I don't think I agree re: those two. I'd just rather take the precaution now, they're basically Lylyth2 in different clothes. I think nerfing the problem pieces is the solution. I would touch the Engine, Turtle, Ossrum and Nemo3. I would also make it so that no model that comes with your Warcaster/Warlock can contest (so no Haley Echoes, no Egregore, etc). I can't really think of anything in the game that bothers me much otherwise. I think the AFG and Turtle, and Wraith Engine are over the line, fine with the rest. The Wraith Engine is more a by product of Incorporeal being a really silly rule, though. I think it's really interesting that you find Axis a problem. Axis with 2 TEPs is a very strong list but one I think every faction can answer, personally if I was to raise an eyebrow at Convergence it would be to Lucant in Clockwork Legions.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 17, 2018 22:25:41 GMT
I think there is enough anti (normal) shooting tech in the game that I'm not super concerned about Caine3 and Sloan, and if SR18 is any indication, we're heading for MORE live scenario play, not less, so...not super concerned there. Skarre (and I'll be honest, most of the problem casters) is a problem interaction with one or two models. For her, it's the wraith engine and (especially) Stalkers. For Rasheth, the Derps, For Axis...well, he's a problem period, but ESPECIALLY with the TEP. Even Nemo3 is much less abusive if you remove the Storm Strider from the equation. Hmmm. D'you think they may have screwed the pooch in terms of Battle Engine balance? I don't think I agree re: those two. I'd just rather take the precaution now, they're basically Lylyth2 in different clothes. I think nerfing the problem pieces is the solution. I would touch the Engine, Turtle, Ossrum and Nemo3. I would also make it so that no model that comes with your Warcaster/Warlock can contest (so no Haley Echoes, no Egregore, etc). I can't really think of anything in the game that bothers me much otherwise. I think the AFG and Turtle, and Wraith Engine are over the line, fine with the rest. The Wraith Engine is more a by product of Incorporeal being a really silly rule, though. I think it's really interesting that you find Axis a problem. Axis with 2 TEPs is a very strong list but one I think every faction can answer, personally if I was to raise an eyebrow at Convergence it would be to Lucant in Clockwork Legions. If the AFG is over the line, so is the Storm Strider. The AFG puts out markedly less damage than the Strider when you factor in E-leaps and Cygnar's lightning tech, and is only slightly harder to kill, while also being less reliable in application. Furthermore, I'm actually less concerned about Skarre1 Wraith Engines than about Skarre1 with 4+ Stalkers. That is NOT a list that relies on linear threat, any of those stalkers are capable of killing a caster, and all of them will trade up HARD on feat turn. I disagree re Axis. He's got a Mk2 control feat that's been ported over to Mk3, and hasn't been touched despite pretty much all of the other such feats getting the nerf bat. Sure, you CAN play into him, but the list is oppressively strong into certain factions, and requires very specific answers. As to Sloan and Caine3...If Lylyth2 had existed in an edition where there was always central LOS-blocking terrain, (with Mk3 eyeless sight) she probably would not have been a nerfhammer worthy target either.
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Post by maplewhisky on Mar 18, 2018 0:27:25 GMT
Shrug. I disagree, but I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this. The AFG is a lot harder to interact with than the Storm Strider, and baseline is considerably harder to remove. I get the Strider often has Arcane Shield or Electrify or whatever but I think calling it slightly harder to kill is an exaggeration. Honestly I think the Strider/TEP is about where I'd want my Battle Engines to be for the cost. Strong but not so strong (turtle) that it warps the faction. Sounds like a problem with Stalkers and Engines. /shrug Stalkers are insane for 8pts, there's a reason pre themes Cryx lists were Stalkers & Raiders. I played Cryx in 2016, every list started with 2-4 Stalkers. He sure does. I have never heard about anyone complain about lack of answers to him though. Can you give me an example? Maybe. I still think the playstyle is degenerate, uninteractive and unhealthy. I'm still down to agree to disagree. =D
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 18, 2018 0:51:27 GMT
@maplewhiskey just a thought here, skarre 3 with double bane riders is also gross. +5 Str And Arm on them is just...ew. I do agree Stalkers are way too good for 8 points and are the main problem though.
I also agree the AFG is far to uninteractive. It’s funny because I tried to make this point in CiD but Ret players continually complained about it being “not that good” oh CiD....
I still doubt any of these things will charge.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 18, 2018 1:30:38 GMT
maplewhisky - I agree...to agree to disagree. macdaddy - I was one of those Ret players. And while I may have been wrong in my initial assessment of the AFG (it may be slightly too good now), I continue to maintain that: A) The initial version proposed in CID was not even as good as the current 'mid-tier' BEs and B) The problem with the arguments that I and others made was that we compared the AFG to the other BEs in CID. Compared to the Storm Strider, the AFG is currently slightly harder to kill, puts out slightly more damage (but doesn't have access to Cygnar's ranged or lightning buffs) and is much less flexible, due to the fact that moving really costs it in terms of output. Put simply, if the Storm Strider was fine, so was the AFG...and at the time, I accepted the premise that the Storm Strider was fine (because at the time, I had more trust in the devs assessment of power level than I do now). Since the Storm Strider is overtuned, however, I was arguing off of a faulty premise. That said, I don't think that the AFG is even the third or fourth most abusive BE.
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