|
Post by streetpizza on Mar 13, 2018 15:29:18 GMT
In my experience the base Druid unit is actually pretty reasonable. It's just that a 12-point support unit leads to support bloat too easily and the attachment only makes it worse. Personally I'd say reduce their point cost to 10 and they'll be okay. The elemental immunity, to me, is not a serious part of their kit. Immunity is never anything until it matters a lot. I think was the reason they changed it... Finally! It was a seriously bad rule. I just hope the new one is better than the current iteration. So now it will be never be anything ... period. Good change boys, good change.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Mar 13, 2018 15:39:34 GMT
In my experience the base Druid unit is actually pretty reasonable. It's just that a 12-point support unit leads to support bloat too easily and the attachment only makes it worse. Personally I'd say reduce their point cost to 10 and they'll be okay. The elemental immunity, to me, is not a serious part of their kit. In every list you currently see them in they are used as a defensive screen to gunlines because they are: Immune to everything but corrosion elemental damage Immune to spells Stealth Def 15 in the cloud The Baldur 1 list reference earlier in the thread added blast damage immunity and no knockdown to that kit making them a pain to remove unless you had a very specefic ranged weapon. AKA: non elemental, stealth ignoring, and able to hit def 15. The unit is designed to have layers of conditional defenses, elemental immunity was one of the only good things going for them. Even at 10 points, the offensive output is...mediocre at best, and their impact on the board is not very meaningful either. A push here, or a knockdown there, all at un-boosted MA 6 (7 if you spend 19 points on a fulcrum or more if you take a WW) is just not reliable at all. Its the MA 6 that kills me. Just way to dicey in almost every game.
|
|
|
Post by kuririnad on Mar 13, 2018 16:52:13 GMT
I think increasing their MA to 7, increase the KD aoe to 4", and adding the pull would make them with it. All you need is one KD and then you can chain KD stuff targeting things that are already knocked down, as well as easily moving those KD models around.
What if they got some sort of magical CRA?
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on Mar 13, 2018 17:01:44 GMT
I think increasing their MA to 7, increase the KD aoe to 4", and adding the pull would make them with it. All you need is one KD and then you can chain KD stuff targeting things that are already knocked down, as well as easily moving those KD models around. What if they got some sort of magical CRA? They had an AOE spell that kinda worked like that but lost it in the transition.
|
|
|
Post by wolfchild on Mar 16, 2018 0:05:08 GMT
A unit that needs a major overhaul but won’t get it till they CID for secret masters and with new immunity rules will see even less (if any) table time until then. MkII-III transition really did a number on a few of our options... other meta shifts inc themapocalypse made sure that several beasts never see the table either (other than when someone is trying to make a point of using the ‘useless’ options). I wonder if the other factions all have essentially ‘dead’ units/solos/beasts/warlocks.
|
|
|
Post by josephkerr on Mar 16, 2018 0:43:10 GMT
Immunity is never anything until it matters a lot. I think was the reason they changed it... Finally! It was a seriously bad rule. I just hope the new one is better than the current iteration. So now it will be never be anything ... period. Good change boys, good change. It will never be anything....really? The Celestial Fulcrum will 'never' get use out of its Immunities, like at all?
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Mar 16, 2018 3:18:49 GMT
So now it will be never be anything ... period. Good change boys, good change. It will never be anything....really? The Celestial Fulcrum will 'never' get use out of its Immunities, like at all? This thread isn’t about the fulcrum. The fulcrum gets a slight buff from this. Because Arm 23 is tough to crack at range and now it’s guns can actually hurt things immune to it. The issue is, for units that weren’t relying on the immunity to survive, it doesn’t really matter, but for the units where it was a main stove if defensive tech (like Druids) it’s a massive kick in the balls.
|
|
|
Post by josephkerr on Mar 16, 2018 3:26:37 GMT
It will never be anything....really? The Celestial Fulcrum will 'never' get use out of its Immunities, like at all? This thread isn’t about the fulcrum. The fulcrum gets a slight buff from this. Because Arm 23 is tough to crack at range and now it’s guns can actually hurt things immune to it. The issue is, for units that weren’t relying on the immunity to survive, it doesn’t really matter, but for the units where it was a main stove if defensive tech (like Druids) it’s a massive kick in the balls. Two anythings, about Druids. After the change, Druids get hit by Victors main cannon. Instead of dying on 6's, they die on 10s, and they dont gain Continuous Effect: Fire either. Circle be hyperbolizing like What?!
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Mar 16, 2018 3:55:44 GMT
josephkerrOh cute one very specific example of them being more survivable. Or the Khador play can just...not use incendiary and be a good player....but then your example falls apart. So I gues you have to assume Khador player is a dodo. No hyperbolozing. It’s a flat reduction in effectiveness to their defensive tech toolkit. Elemental sprays (which there are a solid amount of) and things like Kroak raiders will eat them for breakfast. Also, Elememtal AoE’s will struggle a bit with blast damage, but before there was 0 chance of dying to blasts. Now you just need to boost Damage. There’s only 7 models in the unit at best. You really want me to list the massive amount of things that threaten them now? Cuz it’s a long list.
|
|
|
Post by josephkerr on Mar 16, 2018 4:06:11 GMT
josephkerr Oh cute one very specific example of them being more survivable. Or the Khador play can just...not use incendiary and be a good player....but then your example falls apart. So I gues you have to assume Khador player is a dodo. No hyperbolozing. It’s a flat reduction in effectiveness to their defensive tech toolkit. Elemental sprays (which there are a solid amount of) and things like Kroak raiders will eat them for breakfast. Also, Elememtal AoE’s will struggle a bit with blast damage, but before there was 0 chance of dying to blasts. Now you just need to boost Damage. There’s only 7 models in the unit at best. You really want me to list the massive amount of things that threaten them now? Cuz it’s a long list. I agree that going from 100% invulnerability to any lower number is a reduction in Druid effectiveness, but its one unit that has been identified as "collecting dust on shelves" all of mk3. This does like nothing to Circle list building, and makes a victim stat unit actually play like it. Yes, I brought up elemental blasts, because Druids have prowl and a self proccing cloud. 90 percent of the elemental stuff that clears them are either elemental blasts or blasts that apply continuous effects, of which they stay extremely resiliant. I get it. One model you wish you could use is taking a nerf, and that sucks. You wanna scream at PP and make them change it back, but youre powerless. So you log onto a forum and beat up PP_Strawman to feel better. But changing 100% to 30% is not 0%, and arguing otherwise is ridiculous. Your 13/13 single wound 2 point model no longer face tanks the Revelator at range? I dont think thats the worst change in mk3.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Mar 16, 2018 4:12:24 GMT
@josepgkerr we gripe because we care. But jumping on the circle sub forum to troll circle players frustrated with the change is just as obnoxious.
Also 90% is not blasts. That’s hyperboly. However the best tech for dealing with them is sprays, which they used to be safe against mostly (unless it was a shotgun or Something) a good number of sprays in the game are fire or Frost based.
|
|
|
Post by josephkerr on Mar 16, 2018 4:19:37 GMT
macdaddy Pointing out the good points of the CID Immunity rule to a forum that just wants to whine and complain is not trolling, but its obviously not productive. Ill let the tears continue to flow without trying to make people feel better that "no, not everything is Firetrucked." If the circle forums want to groupthink, overexaggerate, and get defeatist more power to them.
|
|
|
Post by garou on Mar 16, 2018 10:31:28 GMT
You didn't come here to comfort anyone, who you trying to fool? The tears comment alone tells us that. Why you going around in every immunity thread available defending it? Whats your angle? What faction you play that benefit so greatly from this? Or you just a PP fanboy that defend everything they do?
So many questions...
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Mar 16, 2018 12:25:47 GMT
You didn't come here to comfort anyone, who you trying to fool? The tears comment alone tells us that. Why you going around in every immunity thread available defending it? Whats your angle? What faction you play that benefit so greatly from this? Or you just a PP fanboy that defend everything they do? So many questions... Based on his activity on here he at least plays legion and Khador. Legions likes this change quite a bit, and Khador probably likes it as well other than Assault Kommandos.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Mar 16, 2018 12:35:56 GMT
There's been a very vocal minority angling for this change for awhile now. Now that the possibility of it is here they're lobbying for it as hard as they can and damn the other consequences.
Joseph is just being more of a dick about it then most.
I've said it in other threads but the change could be good if PP does it right where they go back and modify every single model to account for the effects of how this will change play dynamics. The sad fact is that they won't. They're going to slap a a big ol' spanner into the gears and watch how things shake out and then very slowly modify the under performers later through a very slow CID process instead of actually ... you know ... being game designers and accounting for the change.
It all comes back to them being very lazy here.
|
|