Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 7, 2018 18:37:49 GMT
I just read that CID is testing a change to immunities. They now result in one less damage die. Thoughts? Not a mod, but that should be it's own thread. I shall make one post haste.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Mar 7, 2018 18:44:35 GMT
I just read that CID is testing a change to immunities. They now result in one less damage die. Thoughts? Not a mod, but that should be it's own thread. I shall make one post haste. I agree but it did relate to the fire topic also. All I saw is a post on FB about it and despite signing up, still cannot access the CID forum to verify the information. Though what they copied and pasted seemed official.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 7, 2018 21:08:04 GMT
What's the faction's access to magic weapons? Legit don't know. probably low. But given the fire immunity I've seen, we're mostly going to have to engage them in melee anyway, which severely restricts list choice and gives them great options against us without teching for it. Its actually pretty high. Most of their stuff with ammo types seems to have at least 1 type that gives magical damage. Even their basic ranged infantry. Good news is that it means they're forced to lose out on the benefits of the other types. Like the one jack which has an ammo type for Additional dice vs constructs and undead, but it can't use that if it wants to shoot our jacks.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 7, 2018 21:19:00 GMT
probably low. But given the fire immunity I've seen, we're mostly going to have to engage them in melee anyway, which severely restricts list choice and gives them great options against us without teching for it. Its actually pretty high. Most of their stuff with ammo types seems to have at least 1 type that gives magical damage. Even their basic ranged infantry. Good news is that it means they're forced to lose out on the benefits of the other types. Like the one jack which has an ammo type for Additional dice vs constructs and undead, but it can't use that if it wants to shoot our jacks. In fairness, that was a guess from before CID.
I can't log in from work, our proxy doesn't like their website, but what kinds of POW are they throwing at us in that case?
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 8, 2018 1:57:24 GMT
probably low. But given the fire immunity I've seen, we're mostly going to have to engage them in melee anyway, which severely restricts list choice and gives them great options against us without teching for it. Its actually pretty high. Most of their stuff with ammo types seems to have at least 1 type that gives magical damage. Even their basic ranged infantry. Good news is that it means they're forced to lose out on the benefits of the other types. Like the one jack which has an ammo type for Additional dice vs constructs and undead, but it can't use that if it wants to shoot our jacks. Higher than I thought, for sure. Losing out on that bonus makes them far less threatening against us, though, whereas every other Warmachine faction is having a collective wtf right now. My bigger concern is Mackay's Feat, Alyce, and Explosivo. That turns the Vindicator back on. Unfortunately for them, at a single shot our easy access to Shield Guard pretty much ruins their game. Provengreil: POW 14 unless they can get other debuffs in range (not always easy). I'm not scared of them yet. The changes to Immunities allow us to interact with their rank-and-file troopers and get some chip damage on 'jacks from range. They can't pump out a truly scary volume of firepower like Cygnar can. Some of their threat ranges are pretty good and almost every 'caster has some speed increase. I'm still not seeing their stuff as particularly durable, especially once they close to our melee ranges, and our Immunity: Fire stops some of their damage from doing much, either (until the Vulcan strips it, but again... need magic weapons to target us still!) Plus it is a lot easier for us to repair our stuff than them.
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Post by correlion on Mar 9, 2018 12:13:39 GMT
Feora can die from fire shooting because HoJ is near? =) Dead cleansers from Carnivian' assault-failcharge?
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Post by streetpizza on Mar 9, 2018 16:21:57 GMT
This would be really crazy. Especially with Crucible Guard turning off our Fire immunity. ...What... An ability first suggested by protectorate players is now being given to the new faction? I feel like Protectorate is in a decent place right now (not complaining about power level)... but our identity is so unclear. Our identity is clear. I think what you're driving at is that you feel the fire identity is not unique. There's a pretty pronounced and important difference between those two.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Mar 9, 2018 17:11:35 GMT
...What... An ability first suggested by protectorate players is now being given to the new faction? I feel like Protectorate is in a decent place right now (not complaining about power level)... but our identity is so unclear. Our identity is clear. I think what you're driving at is that you feel the fire identity is not unique. There's a pretty pronounced and important difference between those two. I agree that I am sad that fire is not as unique to us as other elements are to other factions. But that isn't really what I mean. What do you think our identity is then? Protectorate has so many "gimmicks/themes/I don't know what to call them." Fire, Soul manipulation, Protection/antimagic, Buffing, synergies, Denial, retaliation (battle-driven and vengeance), and healing. I have heard all of the above as answers to the question: "What is our (Protectorate) faction's identity." We have so many different things going on that I do not know how to generically and simply explain our play style to new players. This is just from my point of view though. I do want to hear how others feel about this.
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kaernak
Junior Strategist
Either pray to Menoth or feel his fury. You'll burn either way.
Posts: 172
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Post by kaernak on Mar 9, 2018 17:38:42 GMT
I always explain us as the faction of "no, you can't do that" with a minor dip into lots of fire. We are also good at taking the alpha (because let's face it, we have to) and hitting back harder than we should be able to. "Do you like knights? Do you like fire? Do you like telling your opponent "you can't do that"? Boy do I have a faction for you!"
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Post by Arch4ngel on Mar 11, 2018 21:15:18 GMT
I always explain us as the faction of "no, you can't do that" with a minor dip into lots of fire. We are also good at taking the alpha (because let's face it, we have to) and hitting back harder than we should be able to. "Do you like knights? Do you like fire? Do you like telling your opponent "you can't do that"? Boy do I have a faction for you!" That last part used to be true... I miss those days. Now it's "Oh, you have magic guns too? ...proceed." EDIT: But fire! We have Flame Burst, but - as has kind of been alluded to, but never actually stated - unreliable strategies are frustrating to account for in terms of balance. The biggest complaint with Feora1's feat is that it isn't something you can count on in any important situation. Do you need those 3 dudes to die, because they're threatening your support models? You'll have to kill them manually anyway, because fire might go out. High variance strategies are frequently tilting on one side of the table or the other, for sure, but in terms of impact on plans and list building, I think it would be something that's mostly ignored.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 12, 2018 4:44:04 GMT
If I were to write a creative brief for the Protectorate, a la the CID, it'd probably go like this.
The Protectorate of Menoth is a multifaceted faction comprised of stoic knights and religious masses, backed by powerful Warjacks. The warriors of the Protectorate fight to create a land in accordance with the desires of their god Menoth, doing so through a mix of conversion and crusade.
The overall theme of the faction should be warriors who utilize defensive spells and abilities to become stronger or more resilient. The Protectorate should feature defensive and reactionary elements that demand risk analyses on their opponents' behalf. The leading example of this is found in the Choir of Menoth, who empower faction Warjacks to hit harder or be resilient to standard shooting or magic. Many faction models feature several abilities that trigger off of the death of nearby friendly models, allowing the faction to receive some benefit from taking casualties. Finally, the Protectorate features a significant amount of spell denial, ranging from target prevention and upkeep stripping to easy access to Blessed weaponry and outright denial of enemy spell casting. Limited options will be a theme when playing against the Protectorate.
The Protectorate is split into several military arms, from which three solid themes arise. Holy knights are represented by the Exemplar Order and the Order of the Wall and feature resilient, hard-hitting melee forces with limited ranged elements. The Flameguard are the home defenders of the Protectorate and are represented by forces that dictate the terms of engagement, along with fast moving elements able to disrupt enemy back lines. And finally, the common faithful comprise the final military arm of the Protectorate and are represented by crudely armed infantry that rely on skill and prayer to hit harder than they should otherwise. All facets of the faction should be backed up by Warjacks, as the Protectorate provides easy access to quality Warjack support and focus management.
Protectorate armies are slow in general, with limited access to mobility increases. The faction excels in taking a first strike well, then using casualty-triggered abilities and inherent resilience to hit back hard. Though slow, the Protectorate can use spell and shooting denial abilities to minimize losses until the lines close. Fast flanking options exist, but sacrifice hitting power and resilience for high defense and speed. The Protectorate uses fire thematically to purge the faithless and the faction features several options to deal fire-based damage with easy access to continuous effects. Several options are also or can become immune to fire, making this element challenging to use against them.
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Post by streetpizza on Mar 12, 2018 17:17:03 GMT
Our identity is clear. I think what you're driving at is that you feel the fire identity is not unique. There's a pretty pronounced and important difference between those two. I agree that I am sad that fire is not as unique to us as other elements are to other factions. But that isn't really what I mean. What do you think our identity is then? Protectorate has so many "gimmicks/themes/I don't know what to call them." Fire, Soul manipulation, Protection/antimagic, Buffing, synergies, Denial, retaliation (battle-driven and vengeance), and healing. I have heard all of the above as answers to the question: "What is our (Protectorate) faction's identity." We have so many different things going on that I do not know how to generically and simply explain our play style to new players. This is just from my point of view though. I do want to hear how others feel about this. Thematically: Religiously motivated zealots and crusading knights with a strong fire theme. Rules wise you need to do it by themes. Creators Might: Sub-par but highly buffable jacks with opponent ability denial, difficutly with infantry clearing. Interdiction: High quality spammable weapon master infantry that's slow, difficulty with assassination. Temple of the Flame: Medium quality infantry with a heavy fire theme and speed, difficulty with armor cracking Faithful Masses: Spammable low quality infantry with very high quality solos. Recursion and on death triggering effects. Lack of armor outside of solos. Every faction has become so broad now that its difficult to nail down a single or couple of over riding identities. You can find them in the theme forces for sure but if you try to look for them at the faction level you'll definitely be left with the impression that the faction does a little bit of everything. That's a good thing. Also the game itself is very VERY broad now so you'll see plenty of overlap with other factions. This isn't just true for protectorate.
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