draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167 
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Post by draycos on Mar 6, 2018 16:41:13 GMT
This is intended as a fun and hypothetical discussion about fire...
Fire goes out on a 1 and a 2. What if a rule was added that fire spread on a 6?
"On a 6 (5-6?) all models within 1 (1-3?) Inche(s) are also set on Fire."
Unconnected to the first hypothetical...
What if fire based sprays only had to hit the initial target (to prove the Jet of Flame is aimed the right direction) and then auto hit everything else? How crazy would this be? or how detrimental? (currently you can miss the main target and still potentially kill everything else).
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 6, 2018 16:53:24 GMT
Not to be a party pooper, but one of the reasons I like this game is that it relies on bell curve normal statistical distributions for the most part. I get more grumpy over the linear odds inherent to a single D6 roll. It's the reason Tough can be skewing and why Fire can be awesome or useless with little in-between. Adding another completely random linear odds roll isn't something I care about. I would much rather see solo/small unit support that allows us to spread fire, do more damage to things on fire, deal more damage with fire, charge things on fire, etc. I find that muuuuch more interesting.
For the spray rule, that is really overpowered. Autohits are extremely strong. I favor moving in the direction of fewer autohits, personally. I'm all about buffing the poor little Repenter, but that's not the way to do it. I want the little bugger to get Fuel for the Flames, the rule found on Hand of Judgment. He would then be a strong analogue to Cygnar's Firefly and would find his way into a bunch of lists.
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Post by paradox on Mar 6, 2018 17:24:28 GMT
This would be really crazy. Especially with Crucible Guard turning off our Fire immunity.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Mar 6, 2018 21:20:04 GMT
Not to be a party pooper, but one of the reasons I like this game is that it relies on bell curve normal statistical distributions for the most part. I get more grumpy over the linear odds inherent to a single D6 roll. It's the reason Tough can be skewing and why Fire can be awesome or useless with little in-between. Adding another completely random linear odds roll isn't something I care about. I would much rather see solo/small unit support that allows us to spread fire, do more damage to things on fire, deal more damage with fire, charge things on fire, etc. I find that muuuuch more interesting. For the spray rule, that is really overpowered. Autohits are extremely strong. I favor moving in the direction of fewer autohits, personally. I'm all about buffing the poor little Repenter, but that's not the way to do it. I want the little bugger to get Fuel for the Flames, the rule found on Hand of Judgment. He would then be a strong analogue to Cygnar's Firefly and would find his way into a bunch of lists. This is all part of why I started the topic. I was pretty sure these ideas were off the charts broken and I agree with you. (I too really want to see Protectorate gain more things we can do once people are on fire.) My suggestion is more of a fun flavor idea, as fire has a tendency to spread. As for the Electro leaps... I totally agree those need to be looked at. I know it would be broken to make spray auto hit on the additional targets but I am curious how much worse it is than the current electro leap rules. I would love to see the Repenter (or even that... whats it called... Purifier?) to gain Fuel for the Flames. |
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Mar 6, 2018 21:24:21 GMT
This would be really crazy. Especially with Crucible Guard turning off our Fire immunity. ...What... An ability first suggested by protectorate players is now being given to the new faction? I feel like Protectorate is in a decent place right now (not complaining about power level)... but our identity is so unclear. |
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 6, 2018 21:24:59 GMT
This would be really crazy. Especially with Crucible Guard turning off our Fire immunity. this bothers the CRAP outta me because I've been saying our fire needs this, and now it'll happen TO us instead. it should be an inefficient piece, but available nonetheless. they're getting it on a huge base that'll make it's value under any circumstance. |
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 6, 2018 21:26:03 GMT
The auto-hitting spray would be much worse. First, we can crank a Repenter spray up to POW 16 boostable with just Hand of Judgment and Choir. Electro leaps are not boostable and require a Feat to get more than two dice. They are also POW 10 (12 with Firefly) and limited to only one additional target. Lightning Generator is D3, which is equally random and also unboostable. A positioning derp against Lightning Generator could lose you between 2 and 4 models once the original shot is accounted for. A positioning derp under the proposed spray change has the potential to lose you far more than that, with no ability to soak auto hits onto tougher models like you can with leaps. Electro leaps also don't leave a Continuous Effect on the model.
If you want a randomly spreading Fire rule, look back to Reznik1's Firestarter spell in Mk. I. Basically, it was one cost, set a (living?) model on fire, and then he wandered D6" in a direction determined by the scatter template. If it contacted another living warrior model, that model was set on fire and went wandering the same way. Time consuming but hilarious. Not what I want to see put into the game, but damn if it isn't funny.
The Purifier could gain Fuel for the Flames. I'd like to see him interact with fire better. He's pretty much a waste of space as is.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Mar 6, 2018 21:29:07 GMT
I love the history lesson on Reznick1's Firestarter ability. That does sound really funny.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 6, 2018 21:30:13 GMT
This would be really crazy. Especially with Crucible Guard turning off our Fire immunity. this bothers the CRAP outta me because I've been saying our fire needs this, and now it'll happen TO us instead. it should be an inefficient piece, but available nonetheless. they're getting it on a huge base that'll make it's value under any circumstance. I'm not jumping on the salt truck yet. First, this ability may not survive CID, though I think it likely will. Other stuff might change, too. Second, I'm not sure about that Colossal always making its value. It's damn good, sure, but it is really squishy for a Colossal. Spanking that thing isn't inherently difficult for us to do. We have seen Colossals/Gargantuans drop in points in the last two CIDs and now this one comes out at a higher points level. It does a lot, but it's more expensive as a result. (FWIW, I expect our Colossals to see points drops in the future because of this ongoing philosophy). I really need to see what the faction can do holistically before I call something out as being too much. |
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 6, 2018 21:32:58 GMT
this bothers the CRAP outta me because I've been saying our fire needs this, and now it'll happen TO us instead. it should be an inefficient piece, but available nonetheless. they're getting it on a huge base that'll make it's value under any circumstance. I'm not jumping on the salt truck yet. First, this ability may not survive CiD, though I think it likely will. Other stuff might change, too. Second, I'm not sure about that Colossal always making its value. It's damn good, sure, but it is really squishy for a Colossal. Spanking that thing isn't inherently difficult for us to do. We have seen Colossals/Gargantuans drop in points in the last two CiDs and now this one comes out at a higher points level. It does a lot, but it's more expensive as a result. (FWIW, I expect our Colossals to see points drops in the future because of this ongoing philosophy). I really need to see what the faction can do holistically before I call something out as being too much. Refrain if you wish, but do note that this thing also out-threats most of our faction, at least those that can hurt it. |
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 6, 2018 21:40:02 GMT
What's the faction's access to magic weapons? Legit don't know.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Mar 6, 2018 21:44:27 GMT
What's the faction's access to magic weapons? Legit don't know. probably low. But given the fire immunity I've seen, we're mostly going to have to engage them in melee anyway, which severely restricts list choice and gives them great options against us without teching for it. |
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Mar 6, 2018 23:51:49 GMT
Most of their debuffs require shooting, though. If they can't target our Jacks, they are going to have a hell of a time dealing with them.
In any event, looking forward to this CID. I am considering them as a second side faction so wondering how it will all turn out. Hopeful after Grymkin.
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Post by correlion on Mar 7, 2018 9:33:25 GMT
well Vulkan+Syvestro can have 8 SPD +2 STR, DEF and Vulkan can give -2 armor vs enemy constructs or tough removal + inability to heal vs leaving models(hello Dommie3+MK).
If CG have access to Lanyssa it's a 15 threat range in melee. You don't need to shoot if you can hit with POW 23 vs our jacks.
Aaand Syvestro have Explosivo if you need to shoot at our jacks
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Mar 7, 2018 18:08:04 GMT
I just read that CID is testing a change to immunities. They now result in one less damage die. Thoughts?
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