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Post by Charistoph on Apr 7, 2018 4:17:26 GMT
Well mates you all seem to agree that newbies need to be babysit, but I don't think it is that way. Stomp em, like I get usually stomped, but after the game talk and learn with the guy that stomped you. Listen to his list advice, listen to model feedback to avoid buying useless stuff, learn about his tricks and tactics. But don't expect everybody to go easy on you. Of course, the first few games I too say "go easy", but after a while all newbies should start being matched with competitive gamers too. But it's the competitive gamer responsability to not just win the game, but to teach them how to get better. Heck, have you ever practiced some martial arts? I did Muay Thai, if I sparred my instructor chances were i couldn't even land a single good blow on him, he wouldn't let me hit him cause i would feel good doing it. He is better, he wins. After the sparring, or during it, he always gave me the most solid advice anyway and I learned really a lot from his teachings. Not all the stompings come to do harm, if done correctly you can teach and stomp at the same time. There is a huge difference between not letting your student get a good blow and stomping someone. If your teacher always treated you like you were the highest rank, then you would be repeatedly stomped and having a hard time learning or wanting to do anything. I wrestled in 8th and 9th grade till I broke my arm in practice (and then got lazy). Any single one of the varsity team could have turned me in to a pretzel, and if we were doing unlimited sparring, they would. But when it came time to learn the moves, they allowed me to throw them or turn them in to a pretzel so I could develop the muscle memory to have a chance against those closer to my skill level. I'm kind of reminded of the anime, Kenichi, the Mightiest Disciple. There's a character who is a Muay Thai champion (Apachai Hopachai) with the title, "God of the Underworld" or "Grim Reaper" (in the english dub, anyway). While Kenichi trains with him, he gets carried away and lays Kenichi out in quick blow where he needs to be resuscitated. That last part is stomping right there. So, beat your students, sure, stomp them, no. It may not seem like much of a difference, but the person new to the experience, it sure will.
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Post by Azuresun on Apr 7, 2018 17:48:13 GMT
So, beat your students, sure, stomp them, no. It may not seem like much of a difference, but the person new to the experience, it sure will. I think the distinction is, does the loser learn something from the loss? Does it feel like at some point they could have done something differently and had a chance at winning? Have they learned how to play the game any better, or is it a confusing and frustrating experience of "random special rule, other random special rule, I win"? My very early games of Warmachine, when I was still figuring out the basic rules, were against Rahn, and his ridiculous turn-two "feat, force hammer, tk, tk, battle mages, jeej" assassinations. And they nearly sold me off the game, because I couldn't understand what was happening, and how the heck I was meant to defend against it.
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Post by elladan52 on Apr 7, 2018 18:19:01 GMT
I think it's also important when you are beating newer players that you don't just say "oh you have to buy this model to beat me". That absolutely makes the game seem like pay to win. It might be true, some lists just aren't good into others. But for new players how they play is key, and their first impressions of the game should be centered around the tactical depth that warmachine offers, not the hard counters that sometimes exist.
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 7, 2018 20:14:34 GMT
So, beat your students, sure, stomp them, no. It may not seem like much of a difference, but the person new to the experience, it sure will. I think the distinction is, does the loser learn something from the loss? Does it feel like at some point they could have done something differently and had a chance at winning? Have they learned how to play the game any better, or is it a confusing and frustrating experience of "random special rule, other random special rule, I win"? My very early games of Warmachine, when I was still figuring out the basic rules, were against Rahn, and his ridiculous turn-two "feat, force hammer, tk, tk, battle mages, jeej" assassinations. And they nearly sold me off the game, because I couldn't understand what was happening, and how the heck I was meant to defend against it. That's part of it. Providing them the capacity to react and to hone their skills is another while they are learning, especially in a turn-based game where time isn't as much an issue. Note, that is only for game nights where one can be expected to be learning a game. If a newbie goes in to a tournament, there is no expectation of being kind and should expect to be stomped with only his memory as his education.
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Post by beardmonk on Apr 11, 2018 8:50:11 GMT
Then main issue I find is that WM/H has always been a harder game to get into compared to say, 40K. Since the launch of Mk3 in our area most of the new or causal players have been slowly boiled away to leave only a core of dedicated but mainly competition style players. While our local and slightly wider scene is still strong, I have not seen a new face at events, on the FB pages etc for a very long time.
Talking to some of my mates who are into board games and other tabletop games they have stated that while they know that WM/H is one of the tightest most accurate rule set out there, the barrier to entry both in terms of knowledge, commitment and cost is too high for them to consider it.
Additionally, friends of mine who have drifted away from the game since the launch of Mk3 also feel that the cost of re-engaging in the game it too much in terms of knowledge, commitment and cost of updating their lists as well as the fact that they feel CID could change the rules for something they bought at any given moment. Or they will need to go “balls deep” on the newest theme/release to remain competitive.
We have run lots of demo games with people, been very welcoming, had a good laugh etc, but the high level of entry and the competitive focus of the wider WM/H community seems to be the barrier to new blood, not local players.
While we should be welcoming as possible to new players and be great ambassadors for WM/H I can’t but help feel that PP themselves need to take the lead in this area because we can only work with the game and products they give us. There needs to be more explicit “non SR games” options, more story driven scenarios, campaigns, better and cheaper starter boxes and PP needs to work better with stores, suppliers and stockists to make their product more available outside of the US. Most critically, PP needs to restart the PressGang in some form.
Until PP takes active steps to make the game more welcoming to new players, we will stay in the stagnant state or worse, as the year ticks over, start a slow decline. A game that cannot easily attract new players, dies.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 11, 2018 9:57:22 GMT
Until PP takes active steps to make the game more welcoming to new players, we will stay in the stagnant state or worse, as the year ticks over, start a slow decline. A game that cannot easily attract new players, dies. Is there any option to start them up in Company of Iron? The barrier of entry is much lower, you need less models and the games are more narrative focused. I know this is a larger commitment from yourself as you need to learn additional rules and some/most might not even trickle into the larger WM/H game, but it does seem to be exactly what you're asking for.
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Post by tiberius on Apr 11, 2018 10:48:57 GMT
Company of Iron seems to be the gateway drug for a lot of players in my area, especially ones that have drifted away from the game or have game ADHD. Small skirmish game with low income commitment is what they want. And a quick game to get their warmahordes gaming fix.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 11, 2018 12:56:03 GMT
Company of Iron seems to be the gateway drug for a lot of players in my area, especially ones that have drifted away from the game or have game ADHD. Small skirmish game with low income commitment is what they want. And a quick game to get their warmahordes gaming fix. Does any one have a legit PDF set of rules for CoI and Unbound (or what the big army game type is titled)? [Edit] I completely forgot there was a CoI board on this forum. I found me a PDF for that at least. Now just need to find unbound.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Apr 11, 2018 13:36:14 GMT
CoI was a bit of a disappointment for me. Being an add-on to WM&H, instead of a new, stremalined (even if inspired by WM&H) ruleset, makes the amount of rules it has actually feel larger than in a small game of regular WM&H ;] I keep trying organising events, also ones that are new player friendly, but it's a uphill struggle. I am afraid that until PP really cuts down on multiple barriers of entry WM&H has, there's only so much we can do. Where is the streamlining promised with the introduction of mk3 ? Look at the Crucible Guard - those models are overloaded with surplus of rules, even lowly grunts have multiple attack types (why not a single alternative, no, they have to have three types each) and additional tricks. I wonder if there's anything wrong with cards having blank backs with no special rules at all. IMO it should be a gold standard for all basic troops/jacks in the game. PP design philosophy unfortunately sits firmly in the 70's and 80's, when the complication level of the game equalled its quality. Those days are long gone, though and I wish PP could try harder to introduce "less is more" philosophy, or, to quote wise people: "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."Also -the prices are abysmal. Either you pay similar amount of money but you get TONS of toys to play massive battles with in mass-battle systems, or you pay less than you would for a single character warjack/warbeast and you get a full skirmish warband or a modern board game (which you can play - and split the cost of - with at least 3 other players most of the time) WM&H loses both comparison of prices per model and prices per gaming experience with those competitors. No wonder nobody wants to spend 60$ per single character warjack if similar amount of money buys you a full Guild Ball team, 3 Shadespire warbands or a boardgame like Blood Rage with 40+ miniatures (including big monsters and top-notch, tight rules). I am a really big fan of WM&H and will keep tring to encourage people to try it, but I feel PP isn't making it any easier for me
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Post by beardmonk on Apr 11, 2018 13:54:39 GMT
I am a really big fan of WM&H and will keep tring to encourage people to try it, but I feel PP isn't making it any easier for me My entire feelings about the game summed up into a sentence.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Apr 11, 2018 14:46:15 GMT
PP's prices are also too high honestly. I heard there are persons out there cloning models like there is with 40k/warhammer, but i dunno if that is real. I can understand why people would go that way honestly.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 11, 2018 15:27:32 GMT
There needs to be more explicit “non SR games” options, more story driven scenarios, campaigns, There are tons of non-SR scenarios in NQ Prime. The last two each had like half a dozen scenarios or more spread across WM/H and CoI, I think #1 and #2 had less but still had a few each.
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 11, 2018 16:04:15 GMT
There needs to be more explicit “non SR games” options, more story driven scenarios, campaigns, There are tons of non-SR scenarios in NQ Prime. The last two each had like half a dozen scenarios or more spread across WM/H and CoI, I think #1 and #2 had less but still had a few each. Indeed there are. The hard part is getting the SR-die-hards to look at something else.
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kaernak
Junior Strategist
Either pray to Menoth or feel his fury. You'll burn either way.
Posts: 172
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Post by kaernak on Apr 11, 2018 16:27:11 GMT
One thing we've started doing with our new players is starting a "loser stays on table and scenario" and then we all make sure they get as many games they can while listening to us explain our turns and what our though processes are so that they see different armies and different play styles. One of them even took a win off one of our more experienced players. He was quite proud, and rightly so.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Apr 11, 2018 17:25:57 GMT
There are tons of non-SR scenarios in NQ Prime. The last two each had like half a dozen scenarios or more spread across WM/H and CoI, I think #1 and #2 had less but still had a few each. Indeed there are. The hard part is getting the SR-die-hards to look at something else. PP also doesn’t make it easy. Honestly, I’m not crazy about a lot of the SR scenarios. “Stand in this square to score enough points to win” isn’t exactly the most narratively interesting scenarios, and in some sense scoring points doesn’t quite represent the actual ebb and flow of a battle. For example, no one says “Well, Napoleon’s biggest tactical error at Waterloo was when Private Poutine stepped outside of the giant circle on his left flank so that unit couldn’t score a point. Had he gotten someone to shoot Private Poutine in the back, however, he would have scored and won.” A lot of the narrative scenarios are better on this aspect — the scenarios actually represent things that might actually happen in a fantasy battle, and aren’t just “stand in the giant circle to score more points.” The catch is, even if I find another player who similarly wants to play a more narrative scenario, it’s a lot easier to just throw down an SR scenario because it’s easier. We both know the scenario and have the elements for it in our bags, and have a common point of reference. While PP has a lot of really cool and interesting scenarios buried in NQ, old league documents, etc. If they were to go through this and collate then every couple years, then it would be a lot easier to say “okay, scenario package, page 17 looks cool, let’s do that.” Instead, I, and most other players, just default to Steamroller scenarios because we have the packet in our bag. I think if PP put all the old scenarios in one place, people might play them more.
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