Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578 
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Post by Juris on Mar 5, 2018 16:59:23 GMT
If my opponent wants to spend 18 points on that combo, he's more than welcome to. It's not got a hope in hell of beating up any jack with an ARM 18 or above, and I'd have a 50% chance of not even having to bother to kill it. Much more dangerous into infantry, sure, but 18 points is the cost of an entire unit and then some. That's...not true. 2 of the casters we've seen so far have a way to buff damage against warjacks (either prey Feat and boundless charge from Gearhart, or +2 strength spell and signs and portents feat from Syvestro). That makes the 13 point Suppressor hit a charge at POW 16 (against ARM20), dealing 6 or so damage. Then it does a Rust spray (which we'll assume hits). Then it shoots a fire spray (hits at POW16 now), which averages 3 damage. It then takes its second initial melee attack, which hits at POW18 now, so averages 5 damage. Then it takes 2 more attacks at POW 18 (3 if Gearhart), averaging 10 more damage (15 if Gearhart); Signs and portents probably makes up the difference of the extra attack, so with both Warcasters it averages around 28 damage to an ARM20 Warjack. That's an almost dead Warjack. Add in a tiny amount of dice spike, or one additional attack from some other model, and its dead. Also, consider that Gearhart could have Hotshot on the Suppressor if necessary, so that second spray that dealt 3 damage could deal 6-7 instead. |
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Post by hocestbellum on Mar 5, 2018 17:12:30 GMT
If my opponent wants to spend 18 points on that combo, he's more than welcome to. It's not got a hope in hell of beating up any jack with an ARM 18 or above, and I'd have a 50% chance of not even having to bother to kill it. Much more dangerous into infantry, sure, but 18 points is the cost of an entire unit and then some. That's...not true. 2 of the casters we've seen so far have a way to buff damage against warjacks (either prey Feat and boundless charge from Gearhart, or +2 strength spell and signs and portents feat from Syvestro). That makes the 13 point Suppressor hit a charge at POW 16 (against ARM20), dealing 6 or so damage. Then it does a Rust spray (which we'll assume hits). Then it shoots a fire spray (hits at POW16 now), which averages 3 damage. It then takes its second initial melee attack, which hits at POW18 now, so averages 5 damage. Then it takes 2 more attacks at POW 18 (3 if Gearhart), averaging 10 more damage (15 if Gearhart); Signs and portents probably makes up the difference of the extra attack, so with both Warcasters it averages around 28 damage to an ARM20 Warjack. That's an almost dead warjack. Well, if my opponent wants to spend 18 points, a spell, and a feat to still not kill a warjack he's welcome to do that too, I guess? Alternatively they could use all those buffs on the inevitable beatstick heavy with, probably, P+S 18, and actually get the job done. EDIT: They might not get P+S 18, actually, as they seem to have ready access to ARM debuffs and damage boosters, so maybe it'll be P+S 17 tops like Ret or Cryx |
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 5, 2018 17:47:05 GMT
That's...not true. 2 of the casters we've seen so far have a way to buff damage against warjacks (either prey Feat and boundless charge from Gearhart, or +2 strength spell and signs and portents feat from Syvestro). That makes the 13 point Suppressor hit a charge at POW 16 (against ARM20), dealing 6 or so damage. Then it does a Rust spray (which we'll assume hits). Then it shoots a fire spray (hits at POW16 now), which averages 3 damage. It then takes its second initial melee attack, which hits at POW18 now, so averages 5 damage. Then it takes 2 more attacks at POW 18 (3 if Gearhart), averaging 10 more damage (15 if Gearhart); Signs and portents probably makes up the difference of the extra attack, so with both Warcasters it averages around 28 damage to an ARM20 Warjack. That's an almost dead warjack. Well, if my opponent wants to spend 18 points, a spell, and a feat to still not kill a warjack he's welcome to do that too, I guess? Alternatively they could use all those buffs on the inevitable beatstick heavy with, probably, P+S 18, and actually get the job done. EDIT: They might not get P+S 18, actually, as they seem to have ready access to ARM debuffs and damage boosters, so maybe it'll be P+S 17 tops like Ret or Cryx Suppressor is 13 points; Prospero did not factor into the above hypothetical at all. And the spell and feat allows a 13 point warjack to begin a trade/finish a trade with an ARM20 heavy warjack. Could they just do that with a beatstick heavy? Sure, if they have one that is good value, we'll see; but, importantly, you need/want a source of Rust in your list. Whether the suppressor is the best source of that remains to be seen, but what is valuable is that the Suppressor is modular. You can use him to accomplish a wide variety of tasks (including defeating another high armor heavy if necessary), and that is his true value. Prospero also provides you with tactical flexibility, and his presence (let's be honest, he would be one of your free models in theme) serves that purpose (he doesn't get traded in the above hypo, so he's still around the following turn, or can do something else if needed). |
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Post by smoothcriminal on Mar 5, 2018 18:00:14 GMT
You shouldn't add caster-dependent buffs when comparing models. We don't count all Cygnar jacks as having pow 21+ just because Siege has Fury, right?
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Post by sand20go on Mar 5, 2018 18:23:10 GMT
You shouldn't add caster-dependent buffs when comparing models. We don't count all Cygnar jacks as having pow 21+ just because Siege has Fury, right? hmmm....... I am not sure that clear cut in a limited faction release. For instance, I just don't think you can look at Grymkin Beasts without considering the Battle Engine. ARGUABLY you need to consider Grymkin infantry in light of Heretic as he is going to be the guy that runs them the most. But - and I would agree here - I think we don't know until we see the lineup of casters and see if there is going to be an self evident and obvious "jack caster" choice. |
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 5, 2018 18:41:57 GMT
You shouldn't add caster-dependent buffs when comparing models. We don't count all Cygnar jacks as having pow 21+ just because Siege has Fury, right? It depends on the faction. When considering the output of a staple warjack in a limited release faction (which has only 4 warcasters?), that is built deliberately around synergistic buffs/debuffs, I think that yes, you must absolutely add caster dependent buffs. For instance, if nearly ever caster in Cygnar caster had a way to add melee hitting power to a warjack, I would absolutely consider that when looking at how much of a melee threat a warjack poses in that faction. So far, in Crucible Guard, all 3 of the spoiled warcasters have a way to increase melee damage output (even the battle engine caster has a feat that gives construct models boosted damage rolls, which increases the melee output of warjacks). So, in this context, considering the warjacks output without considering the caster contribution would be folly. |
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Post by hocestbellum on Mar 5, 2018 18:44:15 GMT
Well, if my opponent wants to spend 18 points, a spell, and a feat to still not kill a warjack he's welcome to do that too, I guess? Alternatively they could use all those buffs on the inevitable beatstick heavy with, probably, P+S 18, and actually get the job done. EDIT: They might not get P+S 18, actually, as they seem to have ready access to ARM debuffs and damage boosters, so maybe it'll be P+S 17 tops like Ret or Cryx Suppressor is 13 points; Prospero did not factor into the above hypothetical at all. And the spell and feat allows a 13 point warjack to begin a trade/finish a trade with an ARM20 heavy warjack. Could they just do that with a beatstick heavy? Sure, if they have one that is good value, we'll see; but, importantly, you need/want a source of Rust in your list. Whether the suppressor is the best source of that remains to be seen, but what is valuable is that the Suppressor is modular. You can use him to accomplish a wide variety of tasks (including defeating another high armor heavy if necessary), and that is his true value. Prospero also provides you with tactical flexibility, and his presence (let's be honest, he would be one of your free models in theme) serves that purpose (he doesn't get traded in the above hypo, so he's still around the following turn, or can do something else if needed). The original point was that a Suppressor on Prospero has sod-all chance of killing a Khador heavy. That still stands. The Suppressor is MAT6, P14. It is not in any way threatening to heavies without significant help. How is this even slightly a debate? |
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 5, 2018 18:56:22 GMT
Suppressor is 13 points; Prospero did not factor into the above hypothetical at all. And the spell and feat allows a 13 point warjack to begin a trade/finish a trade with an ARM20 heavy warjack. Could they just do that with a beatstick heavy? Sure, if they have one that is good value, we'll see; but, importantly, you need/want a source of Rust in your list. Whether the suppressor is the best source of that remains to be seen, but what is valuable is that the Suppressor is modular. You can use him to accomplish a wide variety of tasks (including defeating another high armor heavy if necessary), and that is his true value. Prospero also provides you with tactical flexibility, and his presence (let's be honest, he would be one of your free models in theme) serves that purpose (he doesn't get traded in the above hypo, so he's still around the following turn, or can do something else if needed). The original point was that a Suppressor on Prospero has sod-all chance of killing a Khador heavy. That still stands. The Suppressor is MAT6, P14. It is not in any way threatening to heavies without significant help. How is this even slightly a debate? Why is this a debate? Because your assertion is missing half of the picture. You cannot consider the Suppressor in a vacuum; rather, you can, if you want to be completely surprised when in reality he is MAT6+ POW18, in nearly every game for at least one turn if he needs to be. This is a synergistic faction (unlike Khador), and you must consider the synergies when assessing the output of a given model; if you don't, you are quite literally doing it wrong. In other words, the Suppressor will always have "significant help" available, because that is how the faction appears to be designed. What is the value of your assertion in that context? |
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Post by hocestbellum on Mar 5, 2018 19:28:45 GMT
As opposed to your strange quasi-vacuum, where there is plenty of support for this one model, but not for anything else in the army? Every focus you give the Suppressor, you cannot give to another jack. Every spell you cast on it is more resources that can't go elsewhere.
Let's take Aurum, then. Feat and Transmutation. You can get Transmutation on to 2 targets max per turn if you don't mind the first target not benefiting from the Feat. Given that you're probably upkeeping Admonition, you've then got 3 focus for powering jacks. So one gets fully powered, one gets half powered. Why would you choose the Suppressor as the full-power one? All you really need is Rust from it, and then everything else can be better at the next bit.
Or Gearheart. Feat and Boundless Charge. He's a focus 6 caster. Probably upkeeping Hot Shot. Two focus and Boundless Charge leaves him on one focus. Throwing it all on the line so that the Suppressor might be able to achieve something? Nah. You've got the target Preyed, the Suppressor's job is, again, to apply some debuffs so that something not terrible can do its job more efficiently.
It's job is quite clearly to debuff. The amount of resources you have to throw at it to allow it to be semi-competent in melee are better spent elsewhere.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 5, 2018 20:14:50 GMT
Guys, remember the original point was just whether the warjack was something for us to be jealous of or not. I would say in it's current incarnation probably not; it has a couple of short range utility sprays and it can be buffed to be decent in melee. That sounds fine to me; not something that makes me sour on Khador at any rate.
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Post by hocestbellum on Mar 5, 2018 20:43:30 GMT
Wait till you see their equivalent to Demo Corps! Ashen Veil and Carapace on the base unit, slightly better SPD and DEF, one point cheaper. Only P13, but Brutal Charge, and 5 damage boxes. They're also tough, have crit fire and that rule that sets things on fire when you box a model
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 5, 2018 21:23:58 GMT
Well mat 8 pow 16 is better than Kodiak and better than many jacks actually. The key is Rust working only on "construct" models though, elephants and trolls will make this a very sad jack. I see the chassis tradeoff for all the good things is having bad defensive stats. 11/18 is probably the worst defensive statline for a heavy, not enough def to miss and not enough arm to tank. In before they upgrade it in cid. Except the kodiak has more armor, more boxes, higher base strength (relevant for its throw) and an infantry clear that doesn't need to hit and also provides cloud cover. 7 MAT isn't likely to miss other heavies any more than 8 is, 8's still likely going to want to boost against warpwolves. Edit: it also has to hit twice with rat 5 to GET to mat8 pow 16 Sounds like the issue isn't with the supressor but with how good the kodiak is. We might need to revise the kodiak and bump him up a point. 😂 |
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Post by tapecrawler on Mar 5, 2018 22:48:15 GMT
I’ll be honest, I’ve been having a lot of fun thinking about the synergies and possibilities of just the leaked stuff. It does make me a bit melancholy though, the design and interconnected model rules shows that PP can look at the big picture and coordinate all of the elements into a cohesive whole greater than the sum of the parts. For example- Gravedigger theme where there is a definite design philosophy behind them that makes for a very effective army. Khador felt like this a long time ago, but it seems that they got confused and disinterested somewhere along the way and so just kept giving us slow models, inaccurate AOE’s, and decent unbuffed P+S.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Mar 6, 2018 1:40:11 GMT
You shouldn't add caster-dependent buffs when comparing models. We don't count all Cygnar jacks as having pow 21+ just because Siege has Fury, right? hmmm....... I am not sure that clear cut in a limited faction release. For instance, I just don't think you can look at Grymkin Beasts without considering the Battle Engine. ARGUABLY you need to consider Grymkin infantry in light of Heretic as he is going to be the guy that runs them the most. But - and I would agree here - I think we don't know until we see the lineup of casters and see if there is going to be an self evident and obvious "jack caster" choice. We absolutely should add caster-independent buffs because they are usually things that factions are balanced around (choir, krielstone, etc.). You shouldn't add caster-dependent buffs when comparing models. We don't count all Cygnar jacks as having pow 21+ just because Siege has Fury, right? It depends on the faction. When considering the output of a staple warjack in a limited release faction (which has only 4 warcasters?), that is built deliberately around synergistic buffs/debuffs, I think that yes, you must absolutely add caster dependent buffs. For instance, if nearly ever caster in Cygnar caster had a way to add melee hitting power to a warjack, I would absolutely consider that when looking at how much of a melee threat a warjack poses in that faction. So far, in Crucible Guard, all 3 of the spoiled warcasters have a way to increase melee damage output (even the battle engine caster has a feat that gives construct models boosted damage rolls, which increases the melee output of warjacks). So, in this context, considering the warjacks output without considering the caster contribution would be folly. Even if caster stable is limited caster buffs require commitment of finite resources. Base 13pt get you exactly what's said in the model card. Maybe theme benefits or Field marshal will add something for free after that. To get more you have to spend point on support or focus on buffs and everything gets better with those. The problem with adding caster buffs to comparing models is also a wide range of caster buffs. Vlad1 Juggy can charge 14" with S&P, B1 Juggy can charge 8" with boosted everything, which one do we compare to? Should we even do that when you'll encounter those for 1-2 activations per game and rest of 7 turns will be played with regular old Juggies? Wait till you see their equivalent to Demo Corps! Ashen Veil and Carapace on the base unit, slightly better SPD and DEF, one point cheaper. Only P13, but Brutal Charge, and 5 damage boxes. They're also tough, have crit fire and that rule that sets things on fire when you box a model Well that's just bullshit. All around better stats for 1 pt less. |
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Post by Azuresun on Mar 6, 2018 14:59:22 GMT
I trust everyone who's complaining is going to do playtest games to see if these concerns are warranted in actual play, and share the results on the CID forums?
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