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Post by oranjejus on Mar 5, 2018 22:41:18 GMT
If Cannoneers were 15 points, I would get another 4-pt solo in my main list. Love Cannoneers more than the tortoise. Benefits include Animus for the warlock and Shamans, Large base instead of huge - so good with all this terrain, boostable gun, blast template for vs high def infantry, 22" walking gun easier to use than tortoises 23" trample gun (and has potentially longer range with RNG), frenzy slams, slams in general, and generates fury for warlock use. All that said, they are definitely over-costed. I like the suggested 15 points - that does indeed feel right. I just think about the value of 17 points within our faction - we seem to accept the Bronzeback at 18 in most circles I hang around in, so does that mean the tortoise is 1 point worse? The Cannoneer? I'd say yes to that first question, hell no to the second. Sentinels are good at holding/controlling zones. Park one on a back edge: they're very hard to shoot out (add in Krea, if you want obnoxious), and can threaten back against the whole zone with an arcing fire scather (which is just that touch too small). I think they have their place but at 16 points I haven't previously justified it. Increasing their AOE to 4 would make me experiment heavily given the amount of infantry around. Otherwise, if they were 15 points and unchanged I'd be able to swap them with Titan Sentries (whose point cost is also seemingly off) for the zone hold role. Same role, different flavour. Love the Bronzeback in herds, but that's about the only time. Will always (and many times have) take Soldiers instead. I have a very very hard time running herds because of the point costs. Really hoping for a theme that somehow makes that specifically an option. IWH doesn't - gives a couple of Aggys which is ok I guess, but still cannot fit in enough Titans for my tastes. Surely steady is a defining point to the Sentry's purpose? Removing that would kill him (and the warlock/support behind him) a lot. He doesn't have set defense, he has Brace for Impact - which has won me more than a single game. You can't trivially slam him out of zones. I don't know, I'm really not liking the idea that either of those is worth losing a single point. I'd personally say he is just worth 1 point less straight up, he is only fury 3 after all. Rest of your stuff I agree with
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Post by Charistoph on Mar 5, 2018 23:50:44 GMT
Hmm, Bloodrunners or Nihilators riding raptors?
Chariot pulled by an Immortal Rhino with Immortals in the basket?
And where are the Weapon Attachments? Seriously, there's what, 1, 2, in all of Hordes?
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Mar 6, 2018 12:48:26 GMT
boozy does that require a significantly more investment that killing a SA? I haven't played the sentries in a long time. Significantly more? I suppose it depends on the faction. For those that have difficulty with ARM crack, it can require 2+ heavies with softening from fire first. Routine 23 ARM is tough to chew through by even Primaled, Warp Strengthed Warpwolves, among others. Same with the SA, I suppose. BG buffs are probably the key difference. If you want to save a few points, are melee orientated and are okay eating an alpha, look at Sentries if you have a good BG game. The SA is great, to be sure, but I like the Sentries, since they bring resilience, Steady, Shield Guard, and 3 base attacks. Give them a spin more.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 6, 2018 13:51:20 GMT
It's 1 ARM more at 5 boxes less, so about equal. Unless the opponent brings Chain Weapons or TK, then it's 1 ARM less.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Mar 6, 2018 15:44:16 GMT
It's 1 ARM more at 5 boxes less, so about equal. Unless the opponent brings Chain Weapons or TK, then it's 1 ARM less. True, but also 2pts less, which can be important. In total, the SA is probably a more bang for buck model, but I would't dismiss the Sentry as not worth the points.
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Post by sludgeogre on Mar 11, 2018 22:03:20 GMT
I think you guys are a bit absurd with how far up you want to see things tuned. Coming to this faction from Cygnar, I have a lot of respect for how well the beasts in Skorne do. I think the titans are fine except for the Cannoneer who could lose 2-3 points and be right in line. Bronzeback is great if used well and the Sentry is BONKERS at holding scenario elements, he doesn't need to be beefed up in hitting power. Gladiator is piles of fun and very effective with the beast handlers. Tibbers could probably lose a couple points, too, but I've never played him.
It is certainly true that the Turtle is a major bonus and it's generally pointless to bring something instead of a turtle, but even bringing 2 of them, the Titans do a lot for the list and perform admirably with several casters.
Cygnar has the same kind of Battle Engine issue where the Storm Strider out-classes anything in the themes it can be taken in, except with a few casters (Stryker2 doesn't do well with 2 of them, for example), but it's great as a stand-out piece for the faction. Once you do take two, though, you can still make some pretty cool lists with heavies that might not frequently see the table.
I do feel bad for people that don't want to buy 2 of them and haul them around, but I love them and don't have a problem with it.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
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Post by skormedlover87 on Mar 12, 2018 21:06:50 GMT
I think you guys are a bit absurd with how far up you want to see things tuned. Coming to this faction from Cygnar, I have a lot of respect for how well the beasts in Skorne do. I think the titans are fine except for the Cannoneer who could lose 2-3 points and be right in line. Bronzeback is great if used well and the Sentry is BONKERS at holding scenario elements, he doesn't need to be beefed up in hitting power. Gladiator is piles of fun and very effective with the beast handlers. Tibbers could probably lose a couple points, too, but I've never played him. It is certainly true that the Turtle is a major bonus and it's generally pointless to bring something instead of a turtle, but even bringing 2 of them, the Titans do a lot for the list and perform admirably with several casters. Cygnar has the same kind of Battle Engine issue where the Storm Strider out-classes anything in the themes it can be taken in, except with a few casters (Stryker2 doesn't do well with 2 of them, for example), but it's great as a stand-out piece for the faction. Once you do take two, though, you can still make some pretty cool lists with heavies that might not frequently see the table. I do feel bad for people that don't want to buy 2 of them and haul them around, but I love them and don't have a problem with it. You might notice on my orig post that I'm not interested in getting our beasts stronger. I'm interested in making them more viable. That's why I suggested making the Cannoneer have more gun power, but less melee presence and survivability. To further differentiate our stable. That's why I'd like the Sentry to take a light caress from the Nerf bat, and go to 14 points. Because it's beneficial to have a heavy at each point threshold and to differentiate between survivability of him and the Aradus chassis. The Sentinel and Mammoth both need real help though... I know a bunch of people want to come into these type of threads and put down a wishlist of exactly how op they want all their beasts to be. It's a given that it happens, which is why I wasn't fighting it. I just wish we had a bigger spread of options beyond cheap heavies/15+16point heavies/17+heavies.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Mar 12, 2018 22:22:02 GMT
I disagree with how useful you seem to be implying the titans are.
I would first point to the SA who is head and shoulders above our titans yet isn't burning the national meta to the ground. I guess you can say it is because you can only bring two in a list though that doesn't seem right to me.
Second I would suggest that the skorne players who do play the nation meta and do not take titans in general are doing so for good reason.
Third DOA has not broken into the meta with titans even though it has mortality with archnodes (the best debuff spell in warmachine) and primal (the animus that held up half of the circle faction for all of mk2)
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
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Post by skormedlover87 on Mar 13, 2018 0:51:33 GMT
I just don't think that's a "Titan" issue. It's a caster issue. None of our beast casters are break out stars. X2 is strong, but has better synergy with swifter beasts. Morg1 is generally considered too weak for tournament play, Xekaar is a joke, Makeda3 has problems. Naaresh is, idk, he had a bunch of play right after the big errata and he lost a bunch so his rep isn't great. Zaadesh2 is about the only lock who WANTS Titans and he's just ok in the Meta.
Every really top end caster we've got doesn't especially want either a) a bunch of beasts or b) the heavier chassis that require support i.e Titans. Maybe it's just how I look at it, but that's my take.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 13, 2018 9:43:11 GMT
I think it is very much the Titan's issue. A lot of our beasts are viable (Shaman, Raider, Basilisks, Agonizer, Archidon most prominently) and see play with the respective casters. It's not that we don't have casters that want heavy beaters. But Titans are just not living up to that role. It's not the defensive stat line. 10/19 is bad, but not terrible. Relying on Enrage to get to P+S:Relevant is an issue, but not terrible. Being MAT6 up until PC18 hurts, but isn't terrible. Being SPD4 hurts. A lot.
So since we're wishlisting, here's my wishlist:
All Titans: Unstoppable March (Gain +2 MV and Pathfinder while running) Bronzeback: Change Animus to Overtake, Target: self, PC17 Cannoneer: PC 16, special ranged attack without AOE that slams D3" Gladiator: nothing Sentry: Change animus to give repulsion, Target: self
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Mar 13, 2018 11:19:46 GMT
I do agree that compared to the SA, there's a reason why the latter is being taken ovee them. I don't propose any particlar solution though, since everyone has their own flavor of fix.
However, the shift from 12 DEF to 10 DEF was a significant hurt. I miss Diminish as well, but those don't need to come back to fix the problem.
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Post by sludgeogre on Mar 16, 2018 6:05:39 GMT
You might notice on my orig post that I'm not interested in getting our beasts stronger. I'm interested in making them more viable. That's why I suggested making the Cannoneer have more gun power, but less melee presence and survivability. To further differentiate our stable. That's why I'd like the Sentry to take a light caress from the Nerf bat, and go to 14 points. Because it's beneficial to have a heavy at each point threshold and to differentiate between survivability of him and the Aradus chassis. The Sentinel and Mammoth both need real help though... I know a bunch of people want to come into these type of threads and put down a wishlist of exactly how op they want all their beasts to be. It's a given that it happens, which is why I wasn't fighting it. I just wish we had a bigger spread of options beyond cheap heavies/15+16point heavies/17+heavies. I get where you're coming from, it's just that not a lot of factions get the diverse range of point costs. Cygnar is at 12 for several that are incredible heavies, one heavy at 13 that rarely sees play (Cyclone), one at 14 that NEVER sees play (Reliant), one at 16 points, the Defender, who sees some play but not a lot, and the rest are 17 and 18 points. Generally, heavies with a gun and a meh weapon are at 14 points, which is why I think the canoneer makes complete sense to be at 14, or to get a better gun and go down to 16, but the other titans besides Tibbers don't feel like they need to lose any points at the level of performance they provide. Speed 4 really does hurt quite a bit, but between Rush, Hyper Aggressive, Xerxis2, and Countercharge on Zaadesh2, there are a lot of ways to both increase their threat and reduce the other player's ability to play around them. The sentinel, on the other hand, could have plenty done to it and still be fine. Totally agree that the Mammoth could use a lot help too. The main thing that sucks, as mentioned previously, is just that not many casters want to take titans. The tools they need to do well are rare in the faction, but if the titans were buffed to be taken with other casters, than Zaadesh2 and Xerxis2 would be really over the top. I don't think I really have problems with this as there is enough diversity in the faction in other ways for there to still be quite a bit of list diversity. Themes certainly set this in stone in many cases, as well. I mean, I bought a few Centurions just for Kraye and a whole ton of Trenchers just for Haley3 and Siege2.
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Post by gobber on Mar 16, 2018 7:11:02 GMT
I miss the thematic hyper aggressive on the bb. Rarely used, but symbolic of how angry and territorial it was. What if his leadership ability also gave hyper aggressive? Why is this necessary given the IWH theme benefit already providing hyper aggressive? I wouldn't want to double up on that just to get it in the other themes
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Post by Charistoph on Mar 16, 2018 7:59:18 GMT
All interesting points. Not including animi, it is interesting to look at some of the differences between some of the similar types of Beasts and 'Jacks.
For example, since my other army is Sellsword Mercs, so when I consider heavy gun 'Jacks, naturally my mind considers the Mule and the Mariner.
The Sentinel has Corrosion, Poison, and Scather to its gun, but its range is shorter than the Mariner and Cannoneer (and the Mule if it Aims). In addition, it is incredibly slow and the most pillow-fisted in melee of the four, but its armor is the best against counter-fire. Interestingly enough, its Animus can make it the hardest to hit, but only in melee range. It also has more boosting options then the rest.
The Cannoneer has a better balance of spiral than the Sentinel, only slightly faster, but is a little easier to hit then everything but the Mule. Its gun is as strong as the Mule's, and doesn't have to Aim to maximize its range. It has two melee weapons, like the Sentinel, but they are both stronger than the Sentinel's while only it's mace matches the Mule's. The Tusks are strong, but if you're taking advantage of them, you're losing out on the point of a cannon 'Beast, and better off using the Gladiator for that. Its animus allows it to toss its shot just a little farther than the Mariner.
The Mariner is fun with a decent Defense (for a Heavy), but requires a nearby model to fire its relatively anemic (if long-ranged) gun, and doesn't take damage as well as the other three. It's Anchor Weapon is the strongest melee and comes with the Thresher Action to boot, which almost not makes you not want it for the cannon. Of course, the fun part of this 'Jack is being able to send it in to the water for shenanigans or messing with Blindwater units. The cheapest of the four.
The Mule is an interesting case, as it works best when standing still to boost its range, and can cause havok in a line if the gun makes a critical hit. Much like the Mariner and the Cannoneer, its melee weapon will hit a smidge harder than its gun. It's still a point cheaper than the Sentinel, but can move faster and take one more point of damage, but can't boost as much as the Sentinel can.
Still, speed isn't the biggest problem for these heavy artillery units, as they have decent range and are not really expected to be moving as much. Where speed becomes an issue is for the melee beatsticks.
The fastest melee Heavy is the Rhinodon (not including the Archidon and Characters), which matches my Mercenary Mangler and Nomad, but man is it pillow-fisted and more focused on clearing out infantry with its Threshing Tail.
The Soldier wouldn't be that bad if it wasn't so dang slow. It needs its Advanced Deploy to have any possibility of using its melee and its Carapace to survive long enough to get anywhere. It's Mandibles are great, but its claws can be a little lacking.
The same can almost be said of the Gladiator, but it lacks the Advance Deploy of the Soldier. Sure, it has Rush, but Running or Charging is cheaper in Fury generation and provides an inch more movement. Often its better if you can line up its Slam. Same could be said of the Bronzeback, but it does tend to hit harder, and its more of the Smash & Grab type (takes the most Damage to kill, though).
The problem is that even the slow poke Magnus can outpace all but the Rhinodon, and so can my Mangler and Nomad, and those can hit as hard as the Soldier, which makes them hard to be the first to deliver.
I rather wish these guys had a way to speed them up with the Beast Handlers, or even just a way to take damage to be speed up.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Jun 22, 2018 16:55:26 GMT
I have heard immortal theme is our next CID. We will see if it happens this is just a rumor. Looks like the rumor was right
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