skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Mar 3, 2018 3:44:42 GMT
So, I'm sure you've all noticed our problem. Anytime there's a question of "Animantarax or ... ?" the answer is Derpy. So I've been thinking about how to differentiate our models to get there. 1) Cannoneer. She's completely outclassed by Derpy in every aspect. Slower, worse armored, worse melee output, worse ranged output, lower threat. The only benefits are battlegroup related, and even then they usually don't add up. What hurts even more is that they're exactly the same price. My solution is to go small. -1 Arm, -1 Mat, but give the gun one of Bounce, Crit Stagger or Crit Devestation. Then reduce it in points to 13-14. That gives it a defined role as a gun beast while being significantly cheaper than the SA. 2) Mammoth. The big boy has big problems. He, like the other gargs is overcosted as is. But aside from that, he doesn't stand out from our other heavies. Only slightly better output than a BB in melee. Only slightly better shooting than an SA. More than the coat of both combined. I like his kit, it just doesn't do enough work. So I'd give him Counter Blast as a strait rule, and make him a new animus as befits his fluff as a living siege weapon. Cost 2, range self, for 1 turn this model gains Siege Engine. I'd also reduce his cost to 35. That gives him a definite niche, as a killer of huge bases, outperforming any other model in our stable at that job, while alleviating some of his point cost issues. 3) Sentinel. Needs a complete rebuild from the ground up. He synergizes with little and doesn't earn his points back. Chassis stays the same but gun changes dramatically. The way I see it is there are two directions to go with it. Either as an assassination beast, being very good at taking a single model or two off at a time or as an infantry suppression/destruction specialist. For the assassination game, I'm thinking a non-aoe, reload 2 gun with poison, arcing fire and rat 7. Range 11, ps13 is fine. That should do a fine job murdering beasts, duders or casters. With 2 shots it also has synergy in WoD. Points cost likely has to creep up on this one. For infantry suppression, I'd give it Dual Attack and put it's gun to a 5" aoe with only a 4-6" range. Keep the scather and other stats. Then it threatens whole formations of troops instead of a guy or two. Same point creep, probably 17-18. The Bronzeback I'm quite pleased with, and it'll see stealth buffs by seeing more, cheaper titans on the table. The Sentry is great, but I'd like to see it drop to 14 points for list building flexibility. If you have to adjust abilities to compensate so be it. Set Defense and Steady are both casualties I find acceptable. Gladiator is great as is, and isn't very able to be changed in any one way without stepping on something else's toes. The Dons are perfectly acceptable as is. Cheap beasts with interesting options. Soldier, also good it doesn't need work, the titans were the problem. So let me know what you think of the list I made to pass a boring day or give me your own suggestions. Hopefully pp snoops about here
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Mar 3, 2018 21:29:09 GMT
I do think the Bronzeback is in need of a little tuning. I would see him lose counter charge. That rule is only good on cheaper models or when an opponent makes a big mistake. Otherwise, it usually ends up in a ghastly poor trade for the Bronzeback.
In exchange, I'd like him to get a point of armor or a point cheaper.
Also, I want a small addition to his animus. gaining Duelist when used seems about right (extra def in melee) since Puissance is term about an animal's athletic prowess.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Mar 4, 2018 13:09:57 GMT
I would first assume the turtles will change. In the hopes that PP doesn't mad dog them onto the shelf I would suggest changing their speed to 6 and removing the ability to trample.
The mammoth will need to be cheaper than 2 SA so I would set his points to 30 or 32 and give the gun a combination of a bigger AOE and high explosive until it felt right for the points.
The titans need a design direction and given PPs reluctance to change what is in the battle box much I fear their DEF is untouchable. If they can not become more survivable then they must be cheaper as skorne leans into the titan herd design concept.
To do this the cannoneer should drop to 14 points as is. If range must be removed to justify the points drop he would be fine down to 10 but I think just the points drop is fine.
The glad would have to stay the same to keep the cards in the battle box mostly correct (though honestly I think this is a design mistake)
The sentry should drop to 13-14 points and you can up the pow of the halberd to get the model to hit the point value you want.
The BB should probably lose a point and gain a pow on his gauntlets to keep him as a premium piece but allow doubles to be run.
I would give the sentinel a desert themed animus that makes 5" around him rough terrain and maybe doesn't allow range attacks while within it or gives concealment or -2 to attack rolls. I would then drop the points until the model was in the right spot (probably 2 points) This would reduce most melee ranges attacking him by 3" allowing his 11" gun to hurt infantry without being trivially removed.
I think the soldier should just become the most difficult beast to kill in skorne. It should be harder to kill than the SA. You can justify the fluff aspect of the difference in the chassi with how ants produce different kinds of ants in the same colony. If the chassi changes had to flow into the sentinel the points would have to be increased again but I would still shot for around 15. Increasing the def and arm could be the direction to go or give it a better survivablity animus or specific defenses against infantry. After those changes were made drop the points if the beasts is still not performing.
Obviously I would send all this to CID and see where the models landed but the titans need a design direction and given that big, hard to kill beasts is off the table because the glad is in the battlebox this is the only direction I see being viable.
These changes would remove cyclopes from the meta but given that they are not really seen anyway I would put them on the docket for next CID 2021 BABY!
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Post by jagius021 on Mar 4, 2018 13:54:56 GMT
I miss the thematic hyper aggressive on the bb. Rarely used, but symbolic of how angry and territorial it was. What if his leadership ability also gave hyper aggressive?
A drop in points for the cannoneer is smart, I always try to justify using him but usually gets cut. This especially sucks because I own 3 lol. The fluff describes it being harder to train them, which seemed to justify their points. I wonder if there is another way to conceptualize it.
Personally with titans I miss the Titan herd theme with rasheth, dropping the point cost because you had so many. I wonder if there is a way to work that into titans.
Also, completely thematically, but why did molik karn lose leadership? He was the cyclops king and now he's just a guy. Did everyone lose respect for him? Was he demoted? Bring back this seldom used ability so savage spam can still not be a thing.
Turn razor worm into an aradus model. Hydra too. Make the hydra poop out a work when it dies. Or upon losing a head but that might beat a but much as the heads are conceptualized as spirals and that thing heals a lot.
I like the quicksand idea of an animus for sentinel.
Give Mammoth rapid fire.
I think it would be neat for many of our beasts to have a damage reduction ability. Not just an increase in armor, but when it takes damage, it takes 1 less. Thematically it's because they are used to always being in pain they shrug off a little more. This gives them resistance to auto ping effects. Doesn't work for damage from friendly sources.
Most of my thoughts are all about fluff, I am aware. Probably because I liked the theme of skorne beasts and that's what got me into them.
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Post by Charistoph on Mar 4, 2018 16:44:41 GMT
Skorne has a theme of "Power from Pain", what better place to represent that then in a 'Beast's special abilities, i.e. taking damage makes them even nastier at something. Take the Sentinel Animus that was mentioned, what if it's range was increased if it had taken damage the previous turn?
It would make people either avoid hurting the beasts or go all out to one shot them (leaving other resources unmolested).
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Mar 4, 2018 19:39:29 GMT
Titans would be a lot better if they got +2" on their runs distance and some good animi (excluding rush of course).
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Mar 5, 2018 14:07:07 GMT
Because we got a hot patch CID, I think any hopes for another look are going to be far into the future. Additionally, CID so far has been used for evaluating new models releases primarily, with less focus given to revising previous releases.
Still, I would like to see a few things revised in our core warbeasts stable. In an ideal world, our titans would be restored to DEF 12, but that's a pipe dream. Instead, a single point increase in ARM would certainly be faction defining. Unfortunately, we are excellent at distributing effective ARM buffs, making a routine effective ARM of 22+ in melee.
Instead, I think a functional buff to our titans (and especially the Mammoth)would be to make our warbeasts the de facto standard for beefy. 34+ boxes on all titans, and the Mammoth having the most of all gargolossals would be a definite buff that isn't insurmountable. Becoming the gold standard for tough heavies in Hordes, and rivaling Khador, would be a fun place to be in design space.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 5, 2018 14:39:25 GMT
I think the Titans are actually in a pretty good spot right now. I've played the Titan Herd and it works pretty well. It's a little out-classed by Don-spam, but the Bronzeback adds so much more to fury control and the Titans hit so much harder than Don's that I feel like they have a place.
My only problem with the Titan Herd is that I don't really feel compelled to play at least one of each. Ideally I should see great synergy with all on the table at once, so you would kind of always want the full stable in your list.
I think for what they bring to the table, Gladiators are amazing. I wouldn't change anything there.
Cannoneers should be 15 points. That's really about the only change they need. With 1 less fury and initial and less utility, I don't understand how they cost MORE than a Gladiator.
Sentries I think are not good enough at their role (guarding) for their point cost. The biggest problem I have with them is how difficult it is to get their animus to be worth it. At MAT 6... It just isn't worth the fury usually, especially when they are so low to begin with. I think they need to be "better" at Shield-guarding somehow, but I can't come up with an elegant option that isn't over-powered. Maybe Girded? Or Lash? Maybe native Retaliatory Strike? I don't know. Failing that I think they they need to be fury 4 so you don't give up quite so much hitting power... If the Gladiator is the standard by which we measure Titans, than the Sentry trades too much offense and utility to get it's boosted defense. Another thing I could see is just reducing their point cost a bit. 14 feels right.
The Bronzeback is awesome. He hits SO well for his point cost it's insane. My only problem is that his best ability (leadership) costs so much to get on the table that after you have paid for him to lose a lot of points that you want for the rest of the list to really make it worthwhile. So I think boosting his "herd leading" a bit so that he can really pushes offensive output of the entire herd would be great. I'd like an ability called "Leader of the Pack" that lets Titans within his CMD to charge without being forced against targets he has charged this turn. If that would be too strong coupled with Leadership then make it a "choose one per round" effect.
Honorable mention for Tiberion: I see the price point difference between him and the other Titans and it feels daunting. Like 7 points between him and the Gladiator feels like a LOT. 21 points, maybe 20, feels correct.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Mar 5, 2018 14:46:48 GMT
Sentries I think are not good enough at their role (guarding) for their point cost. The biggest problem I have with them is how difficult it is to get their animus to be worth it. At MAT 6... It just isn't worth the fury usually, especially when they are so low to begin with. I think they need to be "better" at Shield-guarding somehow, but I can't come up with an elegant option that isn't over-powered. Maybe Girded? Or Lash? Maybe native Retaliatory Strike? I don't know. Failing that I think they they need to be fury 4 so you don't give up quite so much hitting power... If the Gladiator is the standard by which we measure Titans, than the Sentry trades too much offense and utility to get it's boosted defense. Another thing I could see is just reducing their point cost a bit. 14 feels right. On this I strongly disagree. I love Sentries, and find they shine often. An effective 23 ARM with all warlocks is amazing, and requires a large amount of resources to remove. I especially like them with Zaadesh2 in Exalted. The amount of interrupting attacks is insane, and hats ground down many an opponent's clock to date.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 5, 2018 15:48:48 GMT
Sentries I think are not good enough at their role (guarding) for their point cost. The biggest problem I have with them is how difficult it is to get their animus to be worth it. At MAT 6... It just isn't worth the fury usually, especially when they are so low to begin with. I think they need to be "better" at Shield-guarding somehow, but I can't come up with an elegant option that isn't over-powered. Maybe Girded? Or Lash? Maybe native Retaliatory Strike? I don't know. Failing that I think they they need to be fury 4 so you don't give up quite so much hitting power... If the Gladiator is the standard by which we measure Titans, than the Sentry trades too much offense and utility to get it's boosted defense. Another thing I could see is just reducing their point cost a bit. 14 feels right. On this I strongly disagree. I love Sentries, and find they shine often. An effective 23 ARM with all warlocks is amazing, and requires a large amount of resources to remove. I especially like them with Zaadesh2 in Exalted. The amount of interrupting attacks is insane, and hats ground down many an opponent's clock to date. They are awesome with Zaadesh2, to be sure. But I would like them be awesome with everyone. To me, the utility of Rush, the extra ps on the third initial, and more importantly the extra fury is not worth it to gain a shield and reach on one of my attacks.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Mar 5, 2018 16:42:59 GMT
I suppose that comes down to meta distinctions.
An Agonizer can get them to base 23 ARM every time. Just having that much beef in my list forces my opponent to dig deep into their ARM crack options. Not every faction has good ARM crack that can chew that many boxes and ARM, and often if they can it takes a significant investment in resources.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Mar 5, 2018 17:42:55 GMT
boozy does that require a significantly more investment that killing a SA? I haven't played the sentries in a long time.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Mar 5, 2018 19:43:14 GMT
So from my perspective, most cids tend to pull in a couple jacks/beasts even if they're not in theme. Not all but most.
When we do eventually get our new releases (I'd assume spoiled during ppcon) if they're going to feature any it'll be the gargs (though part of their issue is thematic) cannoneers and sentinels. These beasts disappeared from tournament play entirely. They obviously need some help.
It'll be interesting to see if we get an update to an existing theme or a new one?
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Mar 5, 2018 19:44:32 GMT
I have heard immortal theme is our next CID. We will see if it happens this is just a rumor.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Mar 5, 2018 21:32:50 GMT
I have heard immortal theme is our next CID. We will see if it happens this is just a rumor. Immortals definitely need the love but pp hasn't prioritized cid's by what theme force needs attention, but rather what they want to do. On the other hand, we know several prominent staffers love our statues to bits soo... Really though, Exalted needs another unit at least, could probably do with a character unit and another character exalted on top. DoA could use a bit of unit diversity from the Skorne side. Paingiver cavalry anyone? MoW probably gets solos(maybe characters) and UA's. WoD seems unlikely, but slinger UA wouldn't be looked at askance. I'm not sure what a new theme would be other than "Army of the West" allowing very specific models. Swordsmen, Karax, Reivers, Cetrati, Molik...
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